Who else saw the "Birth of Israel" on TV on Sunday? (BBC)
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The ideology is much worse - it's longer lasting.
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fat_boy wrote:
You see, you just plain deny facts.
what facts? you made a claim without providing any facts to back your point, i refuted it and even provided you with a link to prove my point. if you want to make a claim, back it up with written facts, or present it as an opinion which can be unsubstantiated EDIT: here's the link again, in case you missed it on my first response (CP went a bit wierd on me with the quotes and HTML) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/events/israel_at_50/history/78601.stm[^]
randprin wrote:
what facts? you made a claim without providing any facts to back your point
Er, yes, I stated that the facts came from the program that you obviously didnt see and in not seeing it, you have no basis on which to refute the facts stated in the program.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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dharani wrote:
Well , in fact its true Isrealies (or the early Zionists to be precise) were ruthless when they occupied thier promised land . The islamic terrorism which has taken a brand new dimension as the major threat to global peace has its roots in the palestenian problem .
damn, i knew israel should have done what their arab brothers did when they didn't really like what you're doing, if you're forgetful, i suggest you read what happened to the palestinians under the benevolent rule of king hussain from Jordan in the 70's when they got a bit too spirited for his taste.
dharani wrote:
Enemy of your enemy is a friend . But none can support the holocaust suffered by 60 million jews in the hands of nazis...
1. 6 million, not 60, it's importent to keep the numbers streight. 2. last i checked main kampf is still one of the best sellers in the arab world (which is amusing since hitler considered the arabs to be no better then lowly slaves to his race of white overlords), quite a few in the arab world insist the the holocust is some sort of an elaborate scam on the part of the jews, etc...
dharani wrote:
Well , they could have peacefully shared this part of land among each other . Thanks to English for having triggered such a nasty issue which continues to consume the peace of the world now in the form of terrorism
it's one of the most common conspiracy theories to assume the brits left the place as an intentional mess so they'll be recalled to it, but the place was a powder keg ready to go off much earlier then that.
Well, it's still fact that while jewish people were merely tolerated and hated around Europe they actually had no issues while living in the arab world for a long time (the arabs just taxed everyone that wasn't muslim). Unfortunately oppressed people without the power or organization to have a real army will fight back the only way they can, guerilla war or what we call today terrorism. It's nothing new, the Israelis did it against the Brits and Palestinians, that Palestinians (or whoever feels like killing themselves out of the muslim nuts out there) do it against the Israelis. Endless cycle that will keep going and probably escalate, it's life and no war on terror will ever stop it, be it terrorism or guerilla or whatever politics calls it. And yes, power makes men do strange things. The Israelis didn't do an innocent takeover, not when they (whoever was in charge) felt God had given them the right to the land and the infidels had to be thrown out, it's something human and being victims of the worst genocide in history would have only increased to religious nuts' determination to get the land at any cost. It's the exact same thing with Arab nuts now, the more you hit them the more they hate you. It's actually a shame that now after Israel is actually trying to make things sort of work there will still have to be a couple of generations before the other side will change, that is if something really bad doesn't make Israel switch back to actually acting instead of just small reactions. But it's same as always, indoctrination, history at the control of the masters, hunger for power, hate, all that makes us human :laugh:
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randprin wrote:
it's the religious fanatics that are really the problem, on both sides,
Now you are making sense. But how about giving back the land taken in the war?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
if i thought that'll be the end of the conflict, you'll have it in a blink of an eye, and we'd even throw in the fanatics sitting on it free of charge. then again let's look at hwat happened when israel left the gaza strip shall we? Hamas and phatah just fought over control, and both sides fired and continue to fire their rockets into israel proper to this day, so why exactly should israel give them even one bit of land?
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fat_boy wrote:
Except for the '60 million'
Whats the real number then ?
fat_boy wrote:
Except for the '60 million' I agree with what you say. It seems the British were caught in the middle, and made a mess of things.
It was the US which passed a "White Paper" supporting the birth of Isreal . This act caught the Brits surprised . The US support was due to the heavy lobbying by the powerful Zionists in US who wanted birth of Isreal at any cost . And ofcourse the guilty Europe started thinking in the lines of the zionists because they were silent spectators (barring few exceptions like Holland) to the atrocities commited to jews. So I buy your argument that UK was caught it the middle . But they could have done a more better job than running away from the crisis . They could have clearly demarcated the lands between jews and arabs and made sure arabs accept the existence of Isreal . After all it was English who allowed the first landing of 1000 odd jews from shores of Europe into red sea shores....and they were the colonial rulers who should have shown more responsibility . Remember : The massacre of millions of Hindus in Pakistan when India got freedom . Lord Mountbatten did not plan properly about the security of so many millions of Hindus there ....while Gandhi was there to save the lives of 18% of muslims in India .
redindian
dharani wrote:
Whats the real number then ?
6 million is the oft quoted figure. The borders of ISrael were well defined. Then after the war Israel didnt return the land, thus doubling its size. There are still UN resoloutions relating to this and demaning its reinstatement.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Lets take a look at his post shall we. "first here's a link to the BBC site for the program (you conveniently forgot to add it) now let's see, i don't see a reference to mosque anywhere in there," Now, he isnt refering to the program, but to a precis on line, which he uses to deny that the events the film stated as fact, happened. And then, using the pejorative 'you conveniently forgot to add it' to try to reinforce his asserion that I am lying. Do you really expect me to debate with such intentional dishonesty?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
modified on Tuesday, May 6, 2008 4:39 AM
enlighten me then, where did this mosque massacre took place, and when? such a thing would have surely had some sort of reference on the internet? (unless offcourse you refer to the goldstein massacre, which is basiclly accusing israel for the acts of a lone lunatic who was put down the rabid dog he was) base your claims on facts everyone can see and read (your best source would probably be to find the program on one of the video sharing sites, it's a 10 year old program so it must be out there somewhere)
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Interesting program, it certainly showed the militancy of the Israelis, and how vicous they were, slaughtering a Mosque full of civilians, including women and children. I can imaging how the Palestinians feel with this in their recent memory. Also the Palestinians were aparently supporters of Hitler, even today Mein Kampf is still a popular book there. Something else the program said was interesting: the Trans Jordanian invasion force was led by British Officers! So here's the wquestion; Did what the Jews suffered at the hands of the Nazis give them the right to act like this against Palestnians?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
How many wrongs make a right? Arial Sharon bombed the King David hotel killing many civilians and called others terrorists. Hamas attacks Israel so Israel shoots back hitting bystanders... :sigh:
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
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How many wrongs make a right? Arial Sharon bombed the King David hotel killing many civilians and called others terrorists. Hamas attacks Israel so Israel shoots back hitting bystanders... :sigh:
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Trollslayer wrote:
How many wrongs make a right? Arial Sharon bombed the King David hotel killing many civilians and called others terrorists. Hamas attacks Israel so Israel shoots back hitting bystanders...
i honestly don't get where you get your facts from?! ariel sharon in the king david hotel bombing?! not according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing[^] and btw, when Hamas launches rockets on a civilian city, israel usually takes no action against those who orchestrate the rocket launching, who take great pains to hide behind woman and children.
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fat_boy wrote:
So you are from Israel. OK, I guesss there is little point discussing this with you.
Oh, what a cop-out. Since you're not Jewish or Palestinian, there's little point in you raising this issue, is there?
fat_racist is just that: a racist and an unreconstituted anti-semite who rails against us at every opportunity. It won't matter what facts you present to refute what he thinks (rarely backed with solid fact) he is set in his ways and won't change. I prefer to pity him his destructive and narrow minded ways.
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Oakman wrote:
Both the Israeli forces and the Jordanian armies were trained and equipped by the British
Yes, interesting paradox isnt it? The Irgun blew up the Brtitish Army HQ too.
Oakman wrote:
Do not be so stupid as to think that the Palestinians were not committing atrocities against the Jews that lived in what became Israel.
Interesting. Do you have any links to that?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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73Zeppelin wrote:
If Israel wanted Palestine destroyed, they could simply break off all contact and sweep through with their army
I think they are happy just to keep them under submission, and they certainly do that. But historically, they have certainly done worse, perhaps before they had to worry about negative press, or under different leadership ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
But historically, they have certainly done worse, perhaps before they had to worry about negative press, or under different leadership ?
Christian, can you name another modern country that, since WWII had war declared against it, won the war and occupied great swaths of the land used to attack it that gave the land back in order to create peace between it and its erstwhile neighbors?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oh dont be so black and white. The guilt of one does not absolve the other. This was the point of my question.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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So you are from Israel. OK, I guesss there is little point discussing this with you.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
So you are from Israel. OK, I guesss there is little point discussing this with you.
I guess that's better than being forced to defend yourself when you have been caught stretching the truth.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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fat_boy wrote:
Did what the Jews suffered at the hands of the Nazis give them the right to act like this against Palestnians?
No, it's fascinating to consider a group who should know what it means to be persecuted, yet so quick to put the boot in when they are the ones in power.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
No, it's fascinating to consider a group who should know what it means to be persecuted, yet so quick to put the boot in when they are the ones in power.
Many of the Jews involved in the fight to carve out a homeland were either ex-members of the British Armed Forces or partisans who fought against the NAZIs in eastern Europe. By training and experience, they knew how to insure that the boot was not planted on their necks as it had been in Germany.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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dharani wrote:
Whats the real number then ?
6 million is the oft quoted figure. The borders of ISrael were well defined. Then after the war Israel didnt return the land, thus doubling its size. There are still UN resoloutions relating to this and demaning its reinstatement.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Well, it's still fact that while jewish people were merely tolerated and hated around Europe they actually had no issues while living in the arab world for a long time (the arabs just taxed everyone that wasn't muslim). Unfortunately oppressed people without the power or organization to have a real army will fight back the only way they can, guerilla war or what we call today terrorism. It's nothing new, the Israelis did it against the Brits and Palestinians, that Palestinians (or whoever feels like killing themselves out of the muslim nuts out there) do it against the Israelis. Endless cycle that will keep going and probably escalate, it's life and no war on terror will ever stop it, be it terrorism or guerilla or whatever politics calls it. And yes, power makes men do strange things. The Israelis didn't do an innocent takeover, not when they (whoever was in charge) felt God had given them the right to the land and the infidels had to be thrown out, it's something human and being victims of the worst genocide in history would have only increased to religious nuts' determination to get the land at any cost. It's the exact same thing with Arab nuts now, the more you hit them the more they hate you. It's actually a shame that now after Israel is actually trying to make things sort of work there will still have to be a couple of generations before the other side will change, that is if something really bad doesn't make Israel switch back to actually acting instead of just small reactions. But it's same as always, indoctrination, history at the control of the masters, hunger for power, hate, all that makes us human :laugh:
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enlighten me then, where did this mosque massacre took place, and when? such a thing would have surely had some sort of reference on the internet? (unless offcourse you refer to the goldstein massacre, which is basiclly accusing israel for the acts of a lone lunatic who was put down the rabid dog he was) base your claims on facts everyone can see and read (your best source would probably be to find the program on one of the video sharing sites, it's a 10 year old program so it must be out there somewhere)
randprin wrote:
enlighten me then, where did this mosque massacre took place
I dont recall.
randprin wrote:
base your claims on facts everyone can see
Why do you think I heade this post "Who else saw the 'Birth of Israel' on TV". Its clearly an invitation to those who did to take part. Since you didnt, then dont presume to deny what was stated in the program.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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fat_boy wrote:
The guilt of one does not absolve the other. This was the point of my question.
And his, I believe
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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fat_boy wrote:
So you are from Israel. OK, I guesss there is little point discussing this with you.
I guess that's better than being forced to defend yourself when you have been caught stretching the truth.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
I guess that's better than being forced to defend yourself when you have been caught stretching the truth.
If you didnt watch the program, which I am assuing you didnt, then you have no basis on which to refute the statements made in the film as having been made.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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fat_racist is just that: a racist and an unreconstituted anti-semite who rails against us at every opportunity. It won't matter what facts you present to refute what he thinks (rarely backed with solid fact) he is set in his ways and won't change. I prefer to pity him his destructive and narrow minded ways.
Oh dear, did I offend you by posting about Israel again? Really, you level of bias is quite extraordinary. I am no anti-semite. What I am snti is the 'they have suffered so much let them have their way' attitude. Fact is Jews, despite their suffering, are not angels, and its about time the world stopped treading on egg shells every time their name is mentioned! BTW, ISraeli masacres, specifically the one mentioned in the program: http://www.soundofegypt.com/palestinian/adult/massacres.htm#DAHMASH[^] Cute isnt it, tell me you dont condemn that kind of savegery despite their religion?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription