Who else saw the "Birth of Israel" on TV on Sunday? (BBC)
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Christian Graus wrote:
But historically, they have certainly done worse, perhaps before they had to worry about negative press, or under different leadership ?
Christian, can you name another modern country that, since WWII had war declared against it, won the war and occupied great swaths of the land used to attack it that gave the land back in order to create peace between it and its erstwhile neighbors?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
had war declared against it
Let's not forget that they declared war first.
Oakman wrote:
and occupied great swaths of the land used to attack it that gave the land back in order to create peace between it and its erstwhile neighbors?
I agree that their recent actions have been somewhat tempered by political pressure, I said as much above. I am not against Israel per se, I'm more playing the devils advocate to those who blindly support a country that does exist because they forcibly displaced those who were there before and have mistreated those folks ever since.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Christian Graus wrote:
No, it's fascinating to consider a group who should know what it means to be persecuted, yet so quick to put the boot in when they are the ones in power.
Many of the Jews involved in the fight to carve out a homeland were either ex-members of the British Armed Forces or partisans who fought against the NAZIs in eastern Europe. By training and experience, they knew how to insure that the boot was not planted on their necks as it had been in Germany.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Yes, that is my point. They saw the results of Nazi oppresion, but instead of compassion, when given the chance, they eagerly took the role of oppressor. They plainly do that the safeguard their own position.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Actually, I was getting at the 'invade to control a threat then withdraw' part of your post, which of course the US did in Kuwait and Iraq.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Actually, I was getting at the 'invade to control a threat then withdraw' part of your post, which of course the US did in Kuwait and Iraq.
1. not my post. 2. where did he say that? or where did you deduct he said that? quote please. 3. the US occupation of kuwait then and iraq now can hardly be compared to israel's occupation of the west bank (which, as i stated earlier, the sane 95% of the country would have turned over to the palestinians in a blink had it not been demonstrated in the gaza strip that giving them land simply means providing them with staging area for unprovoked attacks against israel)
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Trollslayer wrote:
How many wrongs make a right? Arial Sharon bombed the King David hotel killing many civilians and called others terrorists. Hamas attacks Israel so Israel shoots back hitting bystanders...
i honestly don't get where you get your facts from?! ariel sharon in the king david hotel bombing?! not according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing[^] and btw, when Hamas launches rockets on a civilian city, israel usually takes no action against those who orchestrate the rocket launching, who take great pains to hide behind woman and children.
Your army's buldozing of entire cities (well, huts in villages, and in the process the livelihood of hundreds if not thousands, forced to start over, for who knows how many times) for finding 1 weapon/person cache isn't exactly what I'd call helping, considering it's not a last resort measure, your army is treating the palestinians worse than animals, or was, or is. And in your eyes it's justified, more than justified, in their eyes it's a huge crime, in my eyes, it's simply not giving a shit about human lives because they're not jewish and some of them have done you wrong. Their Hamas blowing up any camps their rockets can reach doesn't help either, a great crime for you, justified for them cause in their eyes it's their land, same old not giving a shit about human lives. We're all so alike and yet so damn afraid to admit it, living by the same thousand years old rules and mentality. No matter what we like to fool ourselves into thinking about our great morality as the greater beast, we've evolved egos and fear of ourselves, and taken it to the extremes, who else has managed to destroy so much, prey on their own weak. No matter if right or wrong we are going to destroy it before backing down. I/We is the killer. We are right, they are wrong. We are good, they are evil, it's their fault. We are superior. God is on our side. It's our land. It's our right. Any of these sound familiar?
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Oakman wrote:
had war declared against it
Let's not forget that they declared war first.
Oakman wrote:
and occupied great swaths of the land used to attack it that gave the land back in order to create peace between it and its erstwhile neighbors?
I agree that their recent actions have been somewhat tempered by political pressure, I said as much above. I am not against Israel per se, I'm more playing the devils advocate to those who blindly support a country that does exist because they forcibly displaced those who were there before and have mistreated those folks ever since.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
Let's not forget that they declared war first.
israel declared war? where? when? source please...
Christian Graus wrote:
I agree that their recent actions have been somewhat tempered by political pressure, I said as much above. I am not against Israel per se, I'm more playing the devils advocate to those who blindly support a country that does exist because they forcibly displaced those who were there before and have mistreated those folks ever since.
i'm sorry? are we going by the "i was here first" method? then the land is ours as proved in the bible (which is an accepted source for both islam and judaism), and btw, send all those white americans back to europe and give back the land to the indians, and all those aussies as well (it's aboriginal (spelling) country).
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Christian Graus wrote:
Let's not forget that they declared war first.
israel declared war? where? when? source please...
Christian Graus wrote:
I agree that their recent actions have been somewhat tempered by political pressure, I said as much above. I am not against Israel per se, I'm more playing the devils advocate to those who blindly support a country that does exist because they forcibly displaced those who were there before and have mistreated those folks ever since.
i'm sorry? are we going by the "i was here first" method? then the land is ours as proved in the bible (which is an accepted source for both islam and judaism), and btw, send all those white americans back to europe and give back the land to the indians, and all those aussies as well (it's aboriginal (spelling) country).
randprin wrote:
israel declared war? where? when? source please...
I'm sorry, should I have said genocide instead ?
randprin wrote:
are we going by the "i was here first" method?
Of course not. We are going by the 'people lived there for centuries and were then displaced by force' theory.
randprin wrote:
and btw, send all those white americans back to europe and give back the land to the indians, and all those aussies as well (it's aboriginal (spelling) country).
That would make almost as much sense as allowing anyone who is Jewish take control of Israel because of the land being inhabited by the 12 tribes around 2000 years ago. And, if the West were to take a country by force now as we did 200 years ago, there would be an outcry.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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I'm beyond being offended by you since I now expect it. I am, however, dissapointed at the frequncy with which you make posts where you appear to revel in painting Israel as the villain of the piece. And I have to agree, we are no angels but, just once, I'd like to see you make a post about the hundreds of rocket attacks that go unanswered or the number of palestinians given treatment in Israeli hospitals, free, or how about posting about all the suicide attacks that decimate families that just want to live in peace? Or how about you condemn the constant stream of anti-semitic bile spewed to palestininian children in school? Yes, I'm sure we made mistakes and I'm sure we'll make more but we do our damndest not to kill innocents and we do our best to try and make peace with people that would rather we just ceased to exist.
You didn't make mistakes, neither did most people in your country. But your government (army) is showing the same respect to the palestinian civilians that they are showing yours (buldozing a city because a few are guilty, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah[^] , seems like the teachings have been long lost, God is no longer relevant, or by any chance are they not as worthy of a life as you are? or not as human?). Of course they get treated in hospitals, some people actually care about lives and their oaths.
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fat_boy wrote:
So your invasion of Lebanon last year was staged was it?
you mean, the invasion that started after hezbullah launched a raid across the israel lebanon border to kidnap 2 soldiers from the israeli side of the border? i agree this was a mistake, sadly israel did not react as an arab nation would have (IE, carpet bomb south lebanon flat, and explain that unless the soldiers were produced, alive and well, at the border the following morning, the rest of the country will be a parking lot by noon) but instead took it's soldiers in to minimize as much as possible civilian casualties from the lebanon side (including giving up the element of surprise on quite a few fronts by dropping warning notes to the villagers living in the area to evacuate before the army arrived). really, stop while you have a shred of dignity left, you just keep digging yourself into the "foaming at the mouth hating israel no matter what" corner.
I see the propaganda machine is alive and kicking :)) I'm sure you believe you're right, and your media was so truthful but you've still violated the borders of a state that unfortunately wasn't capable of defending itself either from Israel or Hezbullah or Syria. Though it's irrelevant, it's not like anyone actually with a decent army cares about any kind of borders when it comes to their own interests. The UN is such a farce except when it comes to keeping the small ones in line.
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randprin wrote:
israel declared war? where? when? source please...
I'm sorry, should I have said genocide instead ?
randprin wrote:
are we going by the "i was here first" method?
Of course not. We are going by the 'people lived there for centuries and were then displaced by force' theory.
randprin wrote:
and btw, send all those white americans back to europe and give back the land to the indians, and all those aussies as well (it's aboriginal (spelling) country).
That would make almost as much sense as allowing anyone who is Jewish take control of Israel because of the land being inhabited by the 12 tribes around 2000 years ago. And, if the West were to take a country by force now as we did 200 years ago, there would be an outcry.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
I'm sorry, should I have said genocide instead ?
again, care to back up your claims with more then hot air? or are you trying to join FAT_BOY in the "i'm foaming at the mouth" corner? who declared the war? when did they do it? what source are you using for this information. shouldn't be too hard for you to give a simple answer.
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73Zeppelin wrote:
don't think Israel has any problem with the existence of Palestine, it's Palestine that has a problem with the existence of Israel.
That's your media bias talking, not your fault, but that of your media.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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You didn't make mistakes, neither did most people in your country. But your government (army) is showing the same respect to the palestinian civilians that they are showing yours (buldozing a city because a few are guilty, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah[^] , seems like the teachings have been long lost, God is no longer relevant, or by any chance are they not as worthy of a life as you are? or not as human?). Of course they get treated in hospitals, some people actually care about lives and their oaths.
god was never relevant, but that's a different thread of wholly different hue.
Dexterus wrote:
Of course they get treated in hospitals, some people actually care about lives and their oaths.
They get to hospital because the Israeli government has a policy of non-discrimination regardless of background. Do people forget that there a large number of Israeli muslims, christians, etc, all of whom are treated as equals?
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I see the propaganda machine is alive and kicking :)) I'm sure you believe you're right, and your media was so truthful but you've still violated the borders of a state that unfortunately wasn't capable of defending itself either from Israel or Hezbullah or Syria. Though it's irrelevant, it's not like anyone actually with a decent army cares about any kind of borders when it comes to their own interests. The UN is such a farce except when it comes to keeping the small ones in line.
Dexterus wrote:
I'm sure you believe you're right, and your media was so truthful but you've still violated the borders of a state that unfortunately wasn't capable of defending itself either from Israel or Hezbullah or Syria.
where were the soldiers being held? that's right, lebanon if the nation in question could not defend itself from hezbullah what was israel supposed to do, say "oh well" and get on with the routine? i really don't understand your arguement, "hezbullah took the soliders to lebanon, who could do nothing about it, so israel should have done nothing about it"?!
Dexterus wrote:
Though it's irrelevant, it's not like anyone actually with a decent army cares about any kind of borders when it comes to their own interests. The UN is such a farce except when it comes to keeping the small ones in line.
yes, because if the UN would done it's part, there would be no kidnapping, and no war. great work keeping the small ones in line...
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Christian Graus wrote:
I'm sorry, should I have said genocide instead ?
again, care to back up your claims with more then hot air? or are you trying to join FAT_BOY in the "i'm foaming at the mouth" corner? who declared the war? when did they do it? what source are you using for this information. shouldn't be too hard for you to give a simple answer.
Well, some examples would be this[^] ( this account seems watered down to me, the one I read was by journalists on the ground who reported that Israeli army taking part ), stories I've seen by 60 Minutes, on the Israeli army denying basic medical care to palestinians, other stories I read recently on the subject were in a book called 'Tell me no lies' edited by John Pilger, those are sources I can remember off the top of my head. I have no doubt that many people live in Israel and wish to do so in peace. I have no doubt there are terrorist attacks. I also have no doubt that Israel, like the US now in Iraq, acts in ways that cause people to strap bombs to themselves because they are given no reason to hope to have any chance at living their life in peace.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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I have been shocked in recent years to see some reporting that is not pro Israel, and some of the things that are reported. I'm sure all reporting I see, has some bias. I am equally sure that Israel as a whole ( not targetting any individuals there, or making any blanket statements ) have been given a get out of jail free card, both because everyone rightly feels horror for what the Jews suffered under Nazi Germany, and because much of America misinterprets the Bible to suggest they need to support any country, financially and otherwise, if it calls itself Israel.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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fat_boy wrote:
Actually, I was getting at the 'invade to control a threat then withdraw' part of your post, which of course the US did in Kuwait and Iraq.
1. not my post. 2. where did he say that? or where did you deduct he said that? quote please. 3. the US occupation of kuwait then and iraq now can hardly be compared to israel's occupation of the west bank (which, as i stated earlier, the sane 95% of the country would have turned over to the palestinians in a blink had it not been demonstrated in the gaza strip that giving them land simply means providing them with staging area for unprovoked attacks against israel)
randprin wrote:
1. not my post.
Sorry. Saw the reply, assumed it was Oakman. Didnt expect a thread jumper.
randprin wrote:
2. where did he say that? or where did you deduct he said that? quote please.
Its an interpretation. If you have a different one then please share it with us.
randprin wrote:
israel's occupation of the west bank
How about Israel doubling its size after the 60's war with land it took but hasnt given back?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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fat_boy wrote:
So your invasion of Lebanon last year was staged was it?
you mean, the invasion that started after hezbullah launched a raid across the israel lebanon border to kidnap 2 soldiers from the israeli side of the border? i agree this was a mistake, sadly israel did not react as an arab nation would have (IE, carpet bomb south lebanon flat, and explain that unless the soldiers were produced, alive and well, at the border the following morning, the rest of the country will be a parking lot by noon) but instead took it's soldiers in to minimize as much as possible civilian casualties from the lebanon side (including giving up the element of surprise on quite a few fronts by dropping warning notes to the villagers living in the area to evacuate before the army arrived). really, stop while you have a shred of dignity left, you just keep digging yourself into the "foaming at the mouth hating israel no matter what" corner.
randprin wrote:
took it's soldiers in to minimize as much as possible civilian casualties from the lebanon side
Ha! Bull. You bombed the crap out of the place, and then, eventually your soldiers went in.
randprin wrote:
really, stop while you have a shred of dignity left, you just keep digging yourself into the "foaming at the mouth hating israel no matter what" corner
Ah, the ad-hominem attack. Always the reserve of the looser.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Well, some examples would be this[^] ( this account seems watered down to me, the one I read was by journalists on the ground who reported that Israeli army taking part ), stories I've seen by 60 Minutes, on the Israeli army denying basic medical care to palestinians, other stories I read recently on the subject were in a book called 'Tell me no lies' edited by John Pilger, those are sources I can remember off the top of my head. I have no doubt that many people live in Israel and wish to do so in peace. I have no doubt there are terrorist attacks. I also have no doubt that Israel, like the US now in Iraq, acts in ways that cause people to strap bombs to themselves because they are given no reason to hope to have any chance at living their life in peace.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
I also have no doubt that Israel, like the US now in Iraq, acts in ways that cause people to strap bombs to themselves because they are given no reason to hope to have any chance at living their life in peace.
Oh please. Are you suggesting that the behaviour of the U.S. and Israel causes people to strap bombs on themselves? I'm sorry, with all respect, that's nonsense. Islamics strap bombs on themselves in the name of their radical religion. It's not the behaviour of others, it's the behaviour of themselves. What, are we to be watchful of everything we do in order to make sure that we don't cause some zealot to strap a bomb to himself and kill people? I'm truly surprised this is coming from you.
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a most credible site i have to say, do you have any Respectable source? (one written by a non biased party) really, i don't claim israel is all sweet and harmless, but you digging up the hate mongering sites as credible sources for your views really doesn't show you to be either credible or reliable source of information.
Google "DAHMASH mosque massacre". You will get 496 responses. I am sure you can one of them that isnt biassed.
randprin wrote:
doesn't show you to be either credible or reliable source of information.
Do you claim then that the "DAHMASH mosque massacre" didnt happen?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Yes, that is my point. They saw the results of Nazi oppresion, but instead of compassion, when given the chance, they eagerly took the role of oppressor. They plainly do that the safeguard their own position.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
Yes, that is my point. They saw the results of Nazi oppresion, but instead of compassion, when given the chance, they eagerly took the role of oppressor. They plainly do that the safeguard their own position.
No, seriously, Christian, now I've seen it all. Are you suggesting that the Jewish treatment of the Palestinians is comparable to the German treatment of the Jews during the Holocaust?
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randprin wrote:
took it's soldiers in to minimize as much as possible civilian casualties from the lebanon side
Ha! Bull. You bombed the crap out of the place, and then, eventually your soldiers went in.
randprin wrote:
really, stop while you have a shred of dignity left, you just keep digging yourself into the "foaming at the mouth hating israel no matter what" corner
Ah, the ad-hominem attack. Always the reserve of the looser.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Ha! Bull. You bombed the crap out of the place, and then, eventually your soldiers went in.
lol, no. what was going over there was point bombing with smart weapons, if the israeli air force really wanted to pound the place there would be no hezbullah people left around the place to offer any resistance.
fat_boy wrote:
Ah, the ad-hominem attack. Always the reserve of the looser.
i'm sorry? what? i ask you to prove your points, with a credible source, you cannot or will not, and so i ask you to stop before you embarass yourself any further, my apologies if you thought this was a personal attack against you (although, and i have to add the last barb in, "if you feel the hat fits..." :laugh: )