This is a fucking disgrace
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fat_boy wrote:
When does life start?
From the standpoint of abortion, it's irrelevant. The fact that someone is declared "alive" does not give that them the right to occupy and use another person's body without that person's consent.
fat_boy wrote:
Despite the advances made, it is still legal to kill a foetus of 24 weeks which has a 47% chance of surviving if born.
I agree that it's disgraceful. The intent of abortion should not be to kill a fetus but to remove it from the woman's body. If the fetus can be removed and kept alive, it should be. However, in that case, I would prefer that the woman be forced to carry it to term for a few more months. Unfortunately, who's to stop her from drinking, smoking, abusing drugs, or doing other nasty things to herself (and the fetus) in the mean time?
- Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. - Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. - Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil? - Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Epicurus
Al Beback wrote:
The fact that someone is declared "alive" does not give that them the right to
hell, as long as the foetus / child / person is still living at home or ugly or deformed or brain damaged from an accident or simply fucking irritating - "adults" should have the right to snuff out the lil fuckers. Sieg Heil!
Mike - typical white guy. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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So, wanking is killing life? I mean, a few million alive, moving sperm is life yes?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
No, sperm do not spontaneously divide or otherwise replicate, so they do not meet any definition of life that requires some form of self reproduction. My point, in part, is that any argument for or against abortion that tries to avoid the fact that the fetus is being killed by introducing some arbitrary definition of life is specious at best. There is no question that a life is being taken. The issue is whether or not the circumstances justify the act. Some would argue that taking a life cannot be justified under any circumstance, but most of them would not hesitate to disinfect a wound...
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Al Beback wrote:
The fact that someone is declared "alive" does not give that them the right to
hell, as long as the foetus / child / person is still living at home or ugly or deformed or brain damaged from an accident or simply fucking irritating - "adults" should have the right to snuff out the lil fuckers. Sieg Heil!
Mike - typical white guy. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Thats pretty much the way I read his post too if you define 'using someones body' as being materialy supported by their labour in some way. Actualy, we might as well 'abort' all unemployed people since they are dependent on my 'body'.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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No, sperm do not spontaneously divide or otherwise replicate, so they do not meet any definition of life that requires some form of self reproduction. My point, in part, is that any argument for or against abortion that tries to avoid the fact that the fetus is being killed by introducing some arbitrary definition of life is specious at best. There is no question that a life is being taken. The issue is whether or not the circumstances justify the act. Some would argue that taking a life cannot be justified under any circumstance, but most of them would not hesitate to disinfect a wound...
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martin_hughes wrote:
It would be a legal minefield, and I seriously doubt you'd find any doctors who want to make that choice.
But this is already done, today.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
I've heard of such decisions being made solely by a doctor and/or family members when the mother has been incapacitated (motoring accident, birth complications and other tragic emergency circumstances), but not the case you suggest where a doctor decides in advance whether the mother or child survives.
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From the moment of the first cell division, it is no less alive than a bacterium infecting a cut. Any argument to the contrary is splitting hairs and silly word play.
An acorn is not an oak. It is a potential oak. In the same sense, a fertilised egg is a potential human being, it is not a human being.
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No, sperm do not spontaneously divide or otherwise replicate, so they do not meet any definition of life that requires some form of self reproduction. My point, in part, is that any argument for or against abortion that tries to avoid the fact that the fetus is being killed by introducing some arbitrary definition of life is specious at best. There is no question that a life is being taken. The issue is whether or not the circumstances justify the act. Some would argue that taking a life cannot be justified under any circumstance, but most of them would not hesitate to disinfect a wound...
Rob Graham wrote:
so they do not meet any definition of life that requires some form of self reproduction
That raises an interesting question, are those who are sterile or plants which have been altered to be sterile alive then? BTW I pose this question as a thinking point ... and as such totally OT ;)
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Thats pretty much the way I read his post too if you define 'using someones body' as being materialy supported by their labour in some way. Actualy, we might as well 'abort' all unemployed people since they are dependent on my 'body'.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Thats pretty much the way I read his post too
Strange the way some minds work, isn't it.
fat_boy wrote:
Actualy, we might as well 'abort' all unemployed people since they are dependent on my 'body'.
and we haven't even touched on the elderly, who while having contributed to society are now a net drain - but it is coming, a natural extension of the concept.
Mike - typical white guy. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Rob Graham wrote:
sperm do not spontaneously divide or otherwise replicate
So a person born sterile is not alive?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
I question whether you are actually intelligent life...
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I've heard of such decisions being made solely by a doctor and/or family members when the mother has been incapacitated (motoring accident, birth complications and other tragic emergency circumstances), but not the case you suggest where a doctor decides in advance whether the mother or child survives.
So, its down to a matter of time. But, the legal system does not take that into account. If a doctor legally has the ability to decide, mother or child after a car wreck then he can do the same for a bad pregnancy. And so this issue can be removed from the debate about abortion. So lets bring this argument back to the fundamentals.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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I question whether you are actually intelligent life...
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Rob Graham wrote:
so they do not meet any definition of life that requires some form of self reproduction
That raises an interesting question, are those who are sterile or plants which have been altered to be sterile alive then? BTW I pose this question as a thinking point ... and as such totally OT ;)
Their body cells continue to divide and reproduce, replacing worn out and dead cells. That they do not form a new individual is irrelevant. they live because their cells reproduce.
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An acorn is not an oak. It is a potential oak. In the same sense, a fertilised egg is a potential human being, it is not a human being.
But WHEN is ti a human being. Clearly, after recent exploraiton of the life of a foetus via those internal camera thinggies. foetuses aparantly laugh, respond to external stimuli, etc, thus showing many traits of being aware.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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No, the potential for life begins at conception.
No, the potential for life exists in the individual egg and sperm. That potential is realized when the two are joined into one.
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Me blog, You read
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Not last time I checked, and you? Why does this interest you? Are you in need of a supplier? See my reply to OrigenSH, since he posed the same question as you did earlier, but without the obnoxiousness. What exactly are you arguing?
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So, its down to a matter of time. But, the legal system does not take that into account. If a doctor legally has the ability to decide, mother or child after a car wreck then he can do the same for a bad pregnancy. And so this issue can be removed from the debate about abortion. So lets bring this argument back to the fundamentals.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
Except that the abortion act is the enabler that allows doctors to make that decision: "1 Medical termination of pregnancy(1)Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith— [F1(a)that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or (b)that the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or (c)that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated; or (d)that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.]"
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Their body cells continue to divide and reproduce, replacing worn out and dead cells. That they do not form a new individual is irrelevant. they live because their cells reproduce.
So some of our cells are alive, and that means we are alive? How about hair an nail growth post death? CLearly some cells are still alive while the being as a whole is dead. And perhaps this is true for other cells. Does the marrow continue to produce red blood cells post death? Does the liver etc etc etc. No, clearly the life of the being is NOT tied to the life of its individual cells.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Not last time I checked, and you? Why does this interest you? Are you in need of a supplier? See my reply to OrigenSH, since he posed the same question as you did earlier, but without the obnoxiousness. What exactly are you arguing?
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An acorn is not an oak. It is a potential oak. In the same sense, a fertilised egg is a potential human being, it is not a human being.
So what is it, assuming you're a materialist, that you think is in an oak that isn't in an acorn?
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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Except that the abortion act is the enabler that allows doctors to make that decision: "1 Medical termination of pregnancy(1)Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith— [F1(a)that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or (b)that the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or (c)that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated; or (d)that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.]"
martin_hughes wrote:
Except that the abortion act is the enabler that allows doctors to make that decision:
Not necessarially. If the age of the foetus is ABOVE the legal age of abortion, then other laws come into play, like those you mentioned for a pregnant woman, 8 months pregnant, post car wreck, in a situation where it is her or the baby.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription