This is a fucking disgrace
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Oakman wrote:
meanwhile I'll call Planned Parenthood. . .
It's a bit late for fat_boy, don't you think?
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OK, its a myth. Bollocks, what other argument can I come up with...
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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It's a mystery :) Remember that 'life is in the blood' so perhaps the feotus is not 'alive' as in a human with a spirit until the ~18th day when infused with blood. As we don't know, the precuationary principle means conception is taken to be the point of the beginning of life.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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Rob Graham wrote:
It's a bit late for fat_boy, don't you think?
O.K. I'll call unplanned parenthood -- what's the pope's cell number?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
I don't think the Pope will be helpfull in this regard. Try 1-900-WE-WHACKM instead.
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DemonPossessed wrote:
What happens when fetuses die if they have a soul? Does that soul go to heaven or hell?
Simple answer is we don't know because God has not chosen to reveal the answer. What we do know is that all will be judged justly on the last day. For all we know souls that don't get far enough may get given another chance, a kind of pre-reincarnation, or get some other form of special treatment but there's no biblical evidence I know of for any particular position only supposition and speculation and faith that God knows what he's doing and that perfect justice is part of his character.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
What we do know is that all will be judged justly on the last day.
Are you talking "sheep and goats" or Great White Throne?
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
only supposition and speculation and faith
yup.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
God knows what he's doing and that perfect justice is part of his character.
Yep, sending people to eternal torture for being the way he created them and knew they would be in advance sounds like perfect justice to me.
I'm a Christian: I *know* that I'm perverted. - Ilion
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Al Beback wrote:
In my view, person A had the right to deny B the use of his body (up to a limit). In your view, person A should be thrown in jail for murdering B, when A just wanted B removed.
I haven't stated my view at all. I have only pointed out the absurdity of the argument you continue to use to defend yours. To suggest that killing the fetus is justified because the intent was to remove it, even while possessing certainty that removal would kill it is absurd. It is impossible to then state that there was not also willingness to kill , which, when actualized, is tantamount to intent to kill. Find a better defense.
Al Beback wrote:
was making the point that abortions cause death only because there's no medical way around it.
That statement is patently ridiculous. Abortions cause death because they kill the fetus as a consequence of (and usually a precursor to) removing if from the womb prematurely. The obvious "medical way around it" is to simply wait until the fetus reaches term.
Rob Graham wrote:
I haven't stated my view at all.
You haven't? Let's hear it then, if you have the balls.
Rob Graham wrote:
I have only pointed out the absurdity of the argument you continue to use to defend yours.
Gee, thanks.
Rob Graham wrote:
To suggest that killing the fetus is justified
I haven't suggested that. Get it through your head: removing it is justified. Death is only an unfortunate consequence.
Rob Graham wrote:
It is impossible to then state that there was not also willingness to kill , which, when actualized, is tantamount to intent to kill.
No it isn't. Desire to remove fetus != Desire to kill fetus. Try to accept it.
Rob Graham wrote:
Find a better defense.
There is no other defense. This is it. I give up trying to explain it.
Rob Graham wrote:
Abortions cause death because they kill the fetus as a consequence of (and usually a precursor to) removing if from the womb prematurely.
Kill, kill, kill the fetus! :sigh:
- Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. - Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. - Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil? - Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Epicurus
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If you want to get your tent up about something check out the "girl shortage" in India caused by sex selective abortion: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6934540.stm[^] That get's my panties in a bunch way more than the sometimes solitary and heart wrenching decision of some teen living in poverty. Oh and PS Stay out of my uterus, chubby.
Yep, this is the other end of the wedge. When does a 'disability' become a handicap. Is being a woman a handicap, and if so, to who? The parents? Yes, for sure. So abort her! Murder. Nothing but murder.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Rob Graham wrote:
I haven't stated my view at all.
You haven't? Let's hear it then, if you have the balls.
Rob Graham wrote:
I have only pointed out the absurdity of the argument you continue to use to defend yours.
Gee, thanks.
Rob Graham wrote:
To suggest that killing the fetus is justified
I haven't suggested that. Get it through your head: removing it is justified. Death is only an unfortunate consequence.
Rob Graham wrote:
It is impossible to then state that there was not also willingness to kill , which, when actualized, is tantamount to intent to kill.
No it isn't. Desire to remove fetus != Desire to kill fetus. Try to accept it.
Rob Graham wrote:
Find a better defense.
There is no other defense. This is it. I give up trying to explain it.
Rob Graham wrote:
Abortions cause death because they kill the fetus as a consequence of (and usually a precursor to) removing if from the womb prematurely.
Kill, kill, kill the fetus! :sigh:
- Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. - Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. - Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil? - Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Epicurus
Al Beback wrote:
There is no other defense. This is it. I give up trying to explain it.
Perhaps there is no defense at all, then.
Al Beback wrote:
You haven't? Let's hear it then, if you have the balls.
No balls required. This is probably the only thing I agree with HRC on; to quote: "Abortions should be safe, available and (extremely) rare". I think the circumstances that justify killing the fetus are extremely few, and must be carefully evaluated in each case. I do not believe that there is a simple general rule that is applicable, and I think the fetus's term and viability should play a significant role in the decision, with late term abortions limited to intervention to save the mother's life. Although I would not personally condone the use of early term (weeks, not months) abortion as a substitute for contraception, neither would I prohibit it (not because I think it is right, but because prohibition doesn't work). I think abortion remains dangerously close to murder, but am willing to cede that judgment to the mother, at least early in the term. I think that pretending that abortion is anything other than killing a potential human being is shameful self deception. Anyone choosing to obtain or recommend abortion must be willing to accept responsibility for extinguishing that potential as part of the decision making process, and be prepared to live with the guilt that follows. I accept that my position is not particularly defensible, and makes me a moral relativist, but it is what it is.
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Ilíon wrote:
Therefore, IF a set of parents, so-called, choose to terminate their neonate because it's a bummer being at the constant beck-and-call of such a demanding (and unthankful!) individual, THEN no one else has the right to object that this is a wrong act ... unless these hypothetical objectors are *personally* able and willing to take on the unwelcome task.
That may be what you believe. Or it may be what you believe I believe. But you don't know I believe it (and since you are so laughably and simultaneously contemptibly wrong, you never will) - not that a lack of knowledge has ever stopped you from taking someone else to task just to exercise the sheer ugly shit-filled nastiness that you call a mind.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Ilíon wrote:
Actually, an acorn *is* an oak tree
Yes, you can tell that by the roots and leaves and birds nesting in it. :rolleyes:
Steve_Harris wrote:
Ilíon: Actually, an acorn *is* an oak tree Steve_Harris: Yes, you can tell that by the roots and leaves and birds nesting in it. :rolleyes:
OK, I was wrong: You're not confused; you're intellectually dishonest. Let it never be said that I cannot admit to error.
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Rob Graham wrote:
You have absolutely no right to kill (or have someone else kill) that person before or after removing them from your home. That's is what abortion is, too.
Let me ask you something. If doctors today had the technology to terminate a pregnancy by tranferring the fetus to an environment where he would very likely grow to a healthy child and beyond, would today's abortions still be legal? My point is that abortions result in the death of the fetus only because there's no other choice. You remove the fetus from the womb; it dies. The intent is to remove it, not to kill it.
- Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. - Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. - Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil? - Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Epicurus
You do have a choice it's called "Doing the right thing" by not aborting and put it up for adoption. Two wrongs don't make it right. This much might be too much for your little brain. :doh: It's people like you who can't think beyond their little head that is the problem.
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RichardGrimmer wrote:
their "quality of life" is substantially diminished
I am sure you dont advocate killing all babies that are born with a disability or abnormality.
RichardGrimmer wrote:
The advances made
I was referring to understanding the life of a foetus in the womb. Regarding screening, same thing. You suggest it is OK to kill a disabled or deformed foetus, but not a normal one. Where do you get that double standard from and where do you draw the line? As for the mothers life, this is the only solid reason, but isnt necessarially tied to abortion law. Take the case of siamese twins. An operaiton would be caried out because of the risk to the two of them, even though there is a very hogh risk one will die. To preserve one life, one is sacrificed, and it is up to the doctor who gets the organs, the life. The situation of a mother at risk could be trated the same way outside of abortion law.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Al Beback wrote:
There is no other defense. This is it. I give up trying to explain it.
Perhaps there is no defense at all, then.
Al Beback wrote:
You haven't? Let's hear it then, if you have the balls.
No balls required. This is probably the only thing I agree with HRC on; to quote: "Abortions should be safe, available and (extremely) rare". I think the circumstances that justify killing the fetus are extremely few, and must be carefully evaluated in each case. I do not believe that there is a simple general rule that is applicable, and I think the fetus's term and viability should play a significant role in the decision, with late term abortions limited to intervention to save the mother's life. Although I would not personally condone the use of early term (weeks, not months) abortion as a substitute for contraception, neither would I prohibit it (not because I think it is right, but because prohibition doesn't work). I think abortion remains dangerously close to murder, but am willing to cede that judgment to the mother, at least early in the term. I think that pretending that abortion is anything other than killing a potential human being is shameful self deception. Anyone choosing to obtain or recommend abortion must be willing to accept responsibility for extinguishing that potential as part of the decision making process, and be prepared to live with the guilt that follows. I accept that my position is not particularly defensible, and makes me a moral relativist, but it is what it is.
Rob Graham wrote:
Perhaps there is no defense at all, then.
In my opinion that's the only defense for causing the death of a human being; the fact that that human being is using another human being's body without her consent, and removing him/her from that body ends its life. It's sad, but I believe that the sanctity of our bodies must be respected above all else.
Rob Graham wrote:
This is probably the only thing I agree with HRC on; to quote: "Abortions should be safe, available and (extremely) rare".
I agree. In a perfect world abortions would never be necessary because no pregnancy would ever be unwanted. That takes education (on contraception) and discipline; something we lack a lot of in our society.
Rob Graham wrote:
I think that pretending that abortion is anything other than killing a potential human being is shameful self deception.
Nope, but I hate having to repeat myself.
Rob Graham wrote:
I accept that my position is not particularly defensible, and makes me a moral relativist, but it is what it is.
Yes, and I could sit here and knit pick at whatever little absurdities I could find on your position, but I'll pass. I prefer to have a civil discussion without the need to ridicule.
- Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. - Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. - Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil? - Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Epicurus
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Oakman wrote:
That may be what you believe.
You attempt to deceive yourself -- and anyone else you can -- as per your usual habit. That was, in fact (and so obviously so), but *your* "argument" taken to its conclusion.
Yep. It never bothers you in the slightest that you have no idea what is happening around you, does it? Pathetically safe and secure in your claustrophobically dark and tiny self-created universe with its seas of urine and continents of feces, you shout invective out at the rest of the universe, angry because you are unable to destroy the intelligence, beauty and happiness that others experience, but you can only perceive without understanding. Grunting like a sow rooting among the garbage of her pen, you nervously assure yourself that your self-congratulatory posts somehow make an impact on the world, when in fact they are objects of scorn and derision. Scribble what you will, you make no more difference to me or to the universe than do any of the other morons who write their graffitti on the stalls of the bus-station mens-room. Have a nice day.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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You do have a choice it's called "Doing the right thing" by not aborting and put it up for adoption. Two wrongs don't make it right. This much might be too much for your little brain. :doh: It's people like you who can't think beyond their little head that is the problem.
Madmaximus wrote:
You do have a choice it's called "Doing the right thing" by not aborting and put it up for adoption.
Thanks for your valuable opinion.
Madmaximus wrote:
Two wrongs don't make it right.
Actually, it's "Two wrongs don't make a right." But thanks for the irrelevant cliche.
Madmaximus wrote:
This much might be too much for your little brain. It's people like you who can't think beyond their little head that is the problem.
My little brain can't understand. Don't bother explaining.
- Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. - Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. - Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil? - Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Epicurus
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I don't think the Pope will be helpfull in this regard. Try 1-900-WE-WHACKM instead.
Rob Graham wrote:
Try 1-900-WE-WHACKM instead.
No need. Tim Craig already volunteered. http://www.codeproject.com/script/Forums/View.aspx?fid=2605&select=2564056&fr=1#xx2564056xx
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
What we do know is that all will be judged justly on the last day.
Are you talking "sheep and goats" or Great White Throne?
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
only supposition and speculation and faith
yup.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Sheep and goats but I don't see why you distinguish, there is only one great and terrible day of the Lord, the day of judgement, the last day. I've come across some seriously bent interpretations of Revelation but never one that tries to justify 2 judgement days.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
'life is in the blood'
Didn't Dracula say that?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Even the Devil can quote scripture, so I wouldn't be surprised :)
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
'life is in the blood'
Didn't Dracula say that?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
By the way I'm downing the Chicken soup and feeling much better, might be the eye drops, might not, don't really care right now just glad to be able to see what I'm typing :-D
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)