So Islam is a religion of peace
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Because people are still only people, no matter what their belief is?
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If Islam is a "religion of peace" as I am being told every day then (1) Why are there any Muslims in prison in the first place and (2) Why are there Muslim gangs in prison. According to the article "Prison officers at one of Britain's maximum security jails are losing control to Muslim gangs... staff believe a 'serious incident is imminent' as several wings become dominated by Muslim prisoners." http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/may/25/prisonsandprobation.ukcrime[^]
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dnh wrote:
Because people are still only people, no matter what their belief is?
islam Isn't a religion of peace to begin with.
modified on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:23 AM
Whilst that may be true he makes a good point: religion hides what people are behind a veneer of faux-morality and pseudo-righteousness and it doesn't appear to take much temptation to strip that away regardless of professed belief.
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Andy *M* wrote:
If islam is a "religion of peace" as I am being told every day then
Who is telling you this?
modified on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:22 AM
People that believe that, and, or, people that are lying.
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Andy *M* wrote:
If islam is a "religion of peace" as I am being told every day then
Who is telling you this?
modified on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:22 AM
John C. Smith wrote:
Who is telling you this?
I don't know about hearing it "every day" but when I see something on the news about some Islamic terrorist incident or someone being charged with or suspected of terrorist activities in the name of islam they always get someone from the Muslim Council of Britain to talk about it and they always say "Islam is a religion of peace".
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If Islam is a "religion of peace" as I am being told every day then (1) Why are there any Muslims in prison in the first place and (2) Why are there Muslim gangs in prison. According to the article "Prison officers at one of Britain's maximum security jails are losing control to Muslim gangs... staff believe a 'serious incident is imminent' as several wings become dominated by Muslim prisoners." http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/may/25/prisonsandprobation.ukcrime[^]
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dnh wrote:
Because people are still only people, no matter what their belief is?
islam Isn't a religion of peace to begin with.
modified on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:23 AM
John C. Smith wrote:
islam Isn't a religion of peace to begin with.
Sure it is - a piece of the infidel here, a piece of the Jew there...
I'm pretty sure I would not like to live in a world in which I would never be offended. I am absolutely certain I don't want to live in a world in which you would never be offended. Dave
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If Islam is a "religion of peace" as I am being told every day then (1) Why are there any Muslims in prison in the first place and (2) Why are there Muslim gangs in prison. According to the article "Prison officers at one of Britain's maximum security jails are losing control to Muslim gangs... staff believe a 'serious incident is imminent' as several wings become dominated by Muslim prisoners." http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/may/25/prisonsandprobation.ukcrime[^]
I guess the real question is, why do we assume all Muslims are the same as their lowest common denominator, but don't do the same for Christians ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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I guess the real question is, why do we assume all Muslims are the same as their lowest common denominator, but don't do the same for Christians ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Christian Graus wrote:
why do we assume all Muslims are the same as their lowest common denominator
cause y'all, thems is all freedom hating terrorists.
LOL - I nearly forgot.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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I guess the real question is, why do we assume all Muslims are the same as their lowest common denominator, but don't do the same for Christians ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
I guess the real question is, why do we assume all Muslims are the same as their lowest common denominator, but don't do the same for Christians ?
No we judge them by what they believe in. Christianity doesn't encourage violence and domination, while islime does. Don't you get it? Are you so brainwashed by political correctness (aka fear) that you refuse to see the truth?
modified on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:21 AM
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Christian Graus wrote:
I guess the real question is, why do we assume all Muslims are the same as their lowest common denominator, but don't do the same for Christians ?
No we judge them by what they believe in. Christianity doesn't encourage violence and domination, while islime does. Don't you get it? Are you so brainwashed by political correctness (aka fear) that you refuse to see the truth?
modified on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:21 AM
John C. Smith wrote:
Are you so brainwashed by political correctness (aka fear) that you refuse to see the truth?
Not at all. I see a group of people who understand the Christian position sufficiently to either understand the context of the commands to kill everyone in sight in the OT, or who plain accept that these verses in the Bible are not pushing too many people towards violence. I see the same groups having no understanding of Islam by and large ( and I am in that number, I admit ), except what the media pushes, and making gross assumptions. Either way, it's clear to me that there are extremists who claim the Christian God and those who claim the Muslim one. That there are more Muslims probably has more to do with distribution of wealth than much else. And that we judge them so quickly has more to do with us talking about 'them', when we talk about people like the KKK, we know instinctively that what is being presented is not the common view of a Christian God, through our own experience. If we want to demonise every muslim, then our only hope for survival is to exterminate them all. Because, if we keep pushing them into a corner, many WILL become what we accuse them of, what other option will they have ? How is that not stupid and unfair ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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John C. Smith wrote:
Are you so brainwashed by political correctness (aka fear) that you refuse to see the truth?
Not at all. I see a group of people who understand the Christian position sufficiently to either understand the context of the commands to kill everyone in sight in the OT, or who plain accept that these verses in the Bible are not pushing too many people towards violence. I see the same groups having no understanding of Islam by and large ( and I am in that number, I admit ), except what the media pushes, and making gross assumptions. Either way, it's clear to me that there are extremists who claim the Christian God and those who claim the Muslim one. That there are more Muslims probably has more to do with distribution of wealth than much else. And that we judge them so quickly has more to do with us talking about 'them', when we talk about people like the KKK, we know instinctively that what is being presented is not the common view of a Christian God, through our own experience. If we want to demonise every muslim, then our only hope for survival is to exterminate them all. Because, if we keep pushing them into a corner, many WILL become what we accuse them of, what other option will they have ? How is that not stupid and unfair ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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I guess the real question is, why do we assume all Muslims are the same as their lowest common denominator, but don't do the same for Christians ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
I think the difference is while you have your "extreme" Christians, the leaders don't openly say "Kill others, including your family if they have sinned." (In today's era anyhow.) The Muslims have "leaders" who go on TV and promote death and killing, even for minor things (like women and burkas and their lack of access to anything). While Christianity and Jews have a history of violence, it's like things never changed for some in the Muslim world. Yes, I'm sure part of it is the media. However, when we saw the Twin Towers go down and we learned it was from Muslims who hated America, Americans found something to "rally" against. My undergrad advisor was from Iran and we had a few discussions. I remember him asking if we (Jews) could have alcohol. I told him for one holiday (Purim) it's pretty much expected. He said, "Yeah, we Muslims got screwed on that one." He is the one Muslim I've met that I honestly like and respect. We had other students in CompSci but as soon as they found out I was Jewish, their attitudes changed. It' a never ending cycle. But we don't strap bombs to our chest and try to take out as many as we can regardless of relgion, age, sex... When it comes to the extremes I don't think we want to believe. How many years did the Catholic church cover up sex crimes? Now I think many Catholics are on edge about new priests (but I can't confirm this). Again, we had a leader who said, "Yep, we were wrong," and that seemed to appease some. The non-violent Muslim leaders are not getting their voices heard.
Shhhhh..... http://craptasticnation.blogspot.com/[^]
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There is no point in arguing with someone who is as submissive as you. You have no fire in you.
modified on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:21 AM
Yeah - what we need is fire. Hell, nukes are an even better idea. Kill em all, right ? I'm just not stupid enough to believe the crap the media dishes out, or to assume that every Muslim I see on the bus wants me dead, just becasue I know for sure that some Muslims do. That's not fire, that's weak mindedness. That's gross stereotyping and racism. I choose to believe that the vast bulk of muslim people, follow their religion for no reason beyond that they were born into it, and want nothing more than to live in peace with their families. Just like most Christians.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Christian Graus wrote:
I guess the real question is, why do we assume all Muslims are the same as their lowest common denominator, but don't do the same for Christians ?
No we judge them by what they believe in. Christianity doesn't encourage violence and domination, while islime does. Don't you get it? Are you so brainwashed by political correctness (aka fear) that you refuse to see the truth?
modified on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:21 AM
You are the brain-washed one. Not ALL Muslims are evil. Not ALL Christians are good. Someone at CP has a sig that talks about it doesn't matter how many prayers you say; it's what you do. And I don't think threatening someone to convert under the guise of "you're soul will be in Hell forever" falls into the category of Christianity not encouraging violence. If a religion gives a person (regardless of the religion) happiness, and they don't act violently or preach violence, who cares?
Shhhhh..... http://craptasticnation.blogspot.com/[^]
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I think the difference is while you have your "extreme" Christians, the leaders don't openly say "Kill others, including your family if they have sinned." (In today's era anyhow.) The Muslims have "leaders" who go on TV and promote death and killing, even for minor things (like women and burkas and their lack of access to anything). While Christianity and Jews have a history of violence, it's like things never changed for some in the Muslim world. Yes, I'm sure part of it is the media. However, when we saw the Twin Towers go down and we learned it was from Muslims who hated America, Americans found something to "rally" against. My undergrad advisor was from Iran and we had a few discussions. I remember him asking if we (Jews) could have alcohol. I told him for one holiday (Purim) it's pretty much expected. He said, "Yeah, we Muslims got screwed on that one." He is the one Muslim I've met that I honestly like and respect. We had other students in CompSci but as soon as they found out I was Jewish, their attitudes changed. It' a never ending cycle. But we don't strap bombs to our chest and try to take out as many as we can regardless of relgion, age, sex... When it comes to the extremes I don't think we want to believe. How many years did the Catholic church cover up sex crimes? Now I think many Catholics are on edge about new priests (but I can't confirm this). Again, we had a leader who said, "Yep, we were wrong," and that seemed to appease some. The non-violent Muslim leaders are not getting their voices heard.
Shhhhh..... http://craptasticnation.blogspot.com/[^]
leckey wrote:
However, when we saw the Twin Towers go down and we learned it was from Muslims who hated America, Americans found something to "rally" against.
Exactly. So now it's easy to assume that all Muslims fall into that boat.
leckey wrote:
But we don't strap bombs to our chest and try to take out as many as we can regardless of relgion, age, sex...
Well, there is no 'we'. You, personally have not done anything like that. Israel, as a country, has certainly attacked and killed Muslim women and children. Question is, do I make blanket statements regarding all Jews, because of some ?
leckey wrote:
The non-violent Muslim leaders are not getting their voices heard.
Because they don't sell newspapers.
leckey wrote:
even for minor things (like women and burkas and their lack of access to anything).
yeah, there are Muslim societies worthy of criticism beyond what I can think to criticise any western civilisation. It seems likely there are *more* Muslims with attitudes I'd criticise, than Christians or Jews. I guess what I fear is a world where every Muslim in the West feels they are hated by default, that their beliefs are assumed to be extreme. That's my core point. If a nation hasa policy, address it on a national level, if you meet a Muslim, find out what they believe before you attack their beliefs.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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I think the difference is while you have your "extreme" Christians, the leaders don't openly say "Kill others, including your family if they have sinned." (In today's era anyhow.) The Muslims have "leaders" who go on TV and promote death and killing, even for minor things (like women and burkas and their lack of access to anything). While Christianity and Jews have a history of violence, it's like things never changed for some in the Muslim world. Yes, I'm sure part of it is the media. However, when we saw the Twin Towers go down and we learned it was from Muslims who hated America, Americans found something to "rally" against. My undergrad advisor was from Iran and we had a few discussions. I remember him asking if we (Jews) could have alcohol. I told him for one holiday (Purim) it's pretty much expected. He said, "Yeah, we Muslims got screwed on that one." He is the one Muslim I've met that I honestly like and respect. We had other students in CompSci but as soon as they found out I was Jewish, their attitudes changed. It' a never ending cycle. But we don't strap bombs to our chest and try to take out as many as we can regardless of relgion, age, sex... When it comes to the extremes I don't think we want to believe. How many years did the Catholic church cover up sex crimes? Now I think many Catholics are on edge about new priests (but I can't confirm this). Again, we had a leader who said, "Yep, we were wrong," and that seemed to appease some. The non-violent Muslim leaders are not getting their voices heard.
Shhhhh..... http://craptasticnation.blogspot.com/[^]
You draw all this from having known one Muslim person?
leckey wrote:
Kill others, including your family if they have sinned
leckey wrote:
he non-violent Muslim leaders are not getting their voices heard
Which one of these stories is going to sell more papers?
leckey wrote:
But we don't strap bombs to our chest and try to take out as many as we can regardless of relgion, age, sex...
Nah 'we' just drop our bombs from planes, which obviously are also indiscriminate
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You draw all this from having known one Muslim person?
leckey wrote:
Kill others, including your family if they have sinned
leckey wrote:
he non-violent Muslim leaders are not getting their voices heard
Which one of these stories is going to sell more papers?
leckey wrote:
But we don't strap bombs to our chest and try to take out as many as we can regardless of relgion, age, sex...
Nah 'we' just drop our bombs from planes, which obviously are also indiscriminate
Josh Gray wrote:
Which one of these stories is going to sell more papers?
*grin* precisely.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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leckey wrote:
However, when we saw the Twin Towers go down and we learned it was from Muslims who hated America, Americans found something to "rally" against.
Exactly. So now it's easy to assume that all Muslims fall into that boat.
leckey wrote:
But we don't strap bombs to our chest and try to take out as many as we can regardless of relgion, age, sex...
Well, there is no 'we'. You, personally have not done anything like that. Israel, as a country, has certainly attacked and killed Muslim women and children. Question is, do I make blanket statements regarding all Jews, because of some ?
leckey wrote:
The non-violent Muslim leaders are not getting their voices heard.
Because they don't sell newspapers.
leckey wrote:
even for minor things (like women and burkas and their lack of access to anything).
yeah, there are Muslim societies worthy of criticism beyond what I can think to criticise any western civilisation. It seems likely there are *more* Muslims with attitudes I'd criticise, than Christians or Jews. I guess what I fear is a world where every Muslim in the West feels they are hated by default, that their beliefs are assumed to be extreme. That's my core point. If a nation hasa policy, address it on a national level, if you meet a Muslim, find out what they believe before you attack their beliefs.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
I meant the first "we" as Americans. I try not to lump everyone into one group or another. But I admit it is sometimes hard to be objective. Yes, Israel, the US and a number of other countries have killed innocent people. But what was in retaliation versus offensive? (Just a theoretical question.) I also hate the idea of Muslims feeling hated-- I have seen some studies (don't have the links right now) that this results in more 'extreme' Muslim thoughts/actions. I am limited where I live and the cultural/religious diversity. (I have been told dozens of times that I am the first Jewish person they have met.) I find other religions and cultures interesting; however, my advisor is the only one I have met in person who wanted to discuss it openly. I've met a lot of Hindus--another religion I find very interesting. So not trying to start a flame war here--just trying to look at it somewhat objectively as an American and as a Jew. Can I look at it completely objectively? No. All I can do is try.
Shhhhh..... http://craptasticnation.blogspot.com/[^]