Westboro Baptist Church
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Except, of course, that I am correct.
"By oft repeating an untruth, men come to believe it themselves." --Thomas Jefferson to John Melish, 1813.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
The question which remains, however, is who is repeating the untruth?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
For Jefferson, there would have been no difference.
I sincerely doubt that Jefferson ever thought that he was the President of Virginia. In his writings he consistently refers to the Union as a country and to the States as members of the Union. Note that in all the following, he refers to the (capitalised) States, not the countries. "And we have examples of it in some of our State constitutions which, if not poisoned by priest-craft, would prove its excellence over all mixtures with other elements; and with only equal doses of poison, would still be the best." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. And here: "Under governments, wherein the will of everyone has a just influence; as is the case in England, in a slight degree, and in our States, in a great one." Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787 And here: "The people through all the States are for republican forms, republican principles, simplicity, economy, religious and civil freedom." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Livingston, 1800.
Stan Shannon wrote:
In any case, that quote still does not imply that the purpose of free speech was ever intended to mean unlimited offensiveness.
Actually, since the subject under discussion is peaceful protest, I would have thought that the right to assemble was at least equally appropriate. However: "It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVII, 1782. "I am... against all violations of the Constitution to silence by force and not by reason the complaints or criticisms, just or unjust, of our citizens against the conduct of their agents." --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. "If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801. Is it possible that Thomas Jefferson does not meet your standards of Jeffersonianism?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
I sincerely doubt that Jefferson ever thought that he was the President of Virginia.
You're still reading your own modern attitude towads 'The United States' versus 'These United States' into Jefferson's writings.
Oakman wrote:
Actually, since the subject under discussion is peaceful protest,
Oakman wrote:
Is it possible that Thomas Jefferson does not meet your standards of Jeffersonianism?
Jeffersonianism is the form of government that Jefferson, et al, worked to create. If Jefferson was what you claim from a few isolated, our of context quotes, then all the reasoning behind the anti-federalist movement he was the de facto leader of, as well as nearly 200 years of American legal and political history make absolutely no sense what so ever. If Jeffersonianism is what you claim it to be, than why did it take 200 years to twist it into its modern form? A government where the Westboro church is allowed to spew any offensive vitirole it likes, where ever it likes, cannot possibly be the same form of government where they previously could not. One of those is Jeffersonian, one of them is not. They both cannot be called the same thing because they are precisely the opposite of one another. I claim that the one which actually existed at the time Jefferson lived is Jeffersonian, and that the one which exists today is not. You have on your side a few quotes, I have on mine the entire span of American history.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Oakman wrote:
I sincerely doubt that Jefferson ever thought that he was the President of Virginia.
You're still reading your own modern attitude towads 'The United States' versus 'These United States' into Jefferson's writings.
Oakman wrote:
Actually, since the subject under discussion is peaceful protest,
Oakman wrote:
Is it possible that Thomas Jefferson does not meet your standards of Jeffersonianism?
Jeffersonianism is the form of government that Jefferson, et al, worked to create. If Jefferson was what you claim from a few isolated, our of context quotes, then all the reasoning behind the anti-federalist movement he was the de facto leader of, as well as nearly 200 years of American legal and political history make absolutely no sense what so ever. If Jeffersonianism is what you claim it to be, than why did it take 200 years to twist it into its modern form? A government where the Westboro church is allowed to spew any offensive vitirole it likes, where ever it likes, cannot possibly be the same form of government where they previously could not. One of those is Jeffersonian, one of them is not. They both cannot be called the same thing because they are precisely the opposite of one another. I claim that the one which actually existed at the time Jefferson lived is Jeffersonian, and that the one which exists today is not. You have on your side a few quotes, I have on mine the entire span of American history.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If Jefferson was what you claim from a few isolated, our of context quotes, then all the reasoning behind the anti-federalist movement he was the de facto leader of, as well as nearly 200 years of American legal and political history make absolutely no sense what so ever
Not at all - but the absolutist 'I am right and every man jack of you is wrong' attitude that you espouse is indeed undercut by the man who said more than once that there was room for more than one opinion in the United States, and whom you choose to interpret for everyone without any quoting. That's pretty much the same way Adnan 'explains' Christianity.
Stan Shannon wrote:
You have on your side a few quotes, I have on mine the entire span of American history.
So I can either judge Jefferson by reading what he wrote - or I can judge him by reading what you say he meant when you cannot even find quotes to back you up? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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The question which remains, however, is who is repeating the untruth?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
The question which remains, however, is who is repeating the untruth?
As Jefferson points out, untruth is what insists on being right, no matter what the cost.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
As Jefferson points out, untruth is what insists on being right, no matter what the cost.
If Jefferson pointed that out, then he was a Grand Fool, he was a "post-modernist" out-of-time. "Cost" has nothing to do with whether something is true or untrue.
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Oakman wrote:
As Jefferson points out, untruth is what insists on being right, no matter what the cost.
If Jefferson pointed that out, then he was a Grand Fool, he was a "post-modernist" out-of-time. "Cost" has nothing to do with whether something is true or untrue.
Ilíon wrote:
If Jefferson pointed that out, then he was a Grand Fool, he was a "post-modernist" out-of-time.
Indeed. One wonders what Jefferson himself was doing but insisting that he was right. Clearly, the quote does not stand on its own merit. It is self-contradictory. It begs the question.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Oakman wrote:
As Jefferson points out, untruth is what insists on being right, no matter what the cost.
If Jefferson pointed that out, then he was a Grand Fool, he was a "post-modernist" out-of-time. "Cost" has nothing to do with whether something is true or untrue.
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Ilíon wrote:
If Jefferson pointed that out, then he was a Grand Fool, he was a "post-modernist" out-of-time.
Indeed. One wonders what Jefferson himself was doing but insisting that he was right. Clearly, the quote does not stand on its own merit. It is self-contradictory. It begs the question.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
"Differing on a particular question from those whom I knew to be of the same political principles with myself, and with whom I generally thought and acted, a consciousness of the fallibility of the human mind and of my own in particular, with a respect for the accumulated judgment of my friends, has induced me to suspect erroneous impressions in myself, to suppose my own opinion wrong, and to act with them on theirs. The want of this spirit of compromise, or of self-distrust, proudly but falsely called independence, is what gives [some opponents] victories which they could never obtain if these brethren could learn to respect the opinions of their friends more than of their enemies, and prevents many able and honest men from doing all the good they otherwise might do. These considerations... have often quieted my own conscience in voting and acting on the judgment of others against my own... All honest and prudent men [should] sacrifice a little of self-confidence, and... go with their friends, although they may sometimes think they are going wrong." --Thomas Jefferson to William Duane, 1811.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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"Differing on a particular question from those whom I knew to be of the same political principles with myself, and with whom I generally thought and acted, a consciousness of the fallibility of the human mind and of my own in particular, with a respect for the accumulated judgment of my friends, has induced me to suspect erroneous impressions in myself, to suppose my own opinion wrong, and to act with them on theirs. The want of this spirit of compromise, or of self-distrust, proudly but falsely called independence, is what gives [some opponents] victories which they could never obtain if these brethren could learn to respect the opinions of their friends more than of their enemies, and prevents many able and honest men from doing all the good they otherwise might do. These considerations... have often quieted my own conscience in voting and acting on the judgment of others against my own... All honest and prudent men [should] sacrifice a little of self-confidence, and... go with their friends, although they may sometimes think they are going wrong." --Thomas Jefferson to William Duane, 1811.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Sorry to drag this back up, but I just had to reply that there is the possibility that what this quote is referring to (about being wrong) are all the other things you quoted above. Since this is out of context, perhaps he is explaining here why he became an anti-federalist despite everything he had said before. But frankly, I think I hold the record in the soapbox for admitting to being wrong. I've never had a problem with tht. I've substantially changed my positions on the genetic causes of homosexuality, as well as CO2 and global warming. I'm just not wrong about Marxism. Its like being wrong about the sun rising in the east and setting in the west. It is an obvious, observable reality. It is happening with no real attempt to disquise it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Sorry to drag this back up, but I just had to reply that there is the possibility that what this quote is referring to (about being wrong) are all the other things you quoted above. Since this is out of context, perhaps he is explaining here why he became an anti-federalist despite everything he had said before. But frankly, I think I hold the record in the soapbox for admitting to being wrong. I've never had a problem with tht. I've substantially changed my positions on the genetic causes of homosexuality, as well as CO2 and global warming. I'm just not wrong about Marxism. Its like being wrong about the sun rising in the east and setting in the west. It is an obvious, observable reality. It is happening with no real attempt to disquise it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
But frankly, I think I hold the record in the soapbox for admitting to being wrong.
The only time I can remember you refusing to admit reasonable doubt was when I pointed you to the transcript of Cheney's Meet the Press interview and you claimed it never happened.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I'm just not wrong about Marxism. Its like being wrong about the sun rising in the east and setting in the west.
I, too, can see Marxism. And I think that it exists (with different labels) in this country and in this forum. I part company from you only in saying that I see tolitarianism coming from the right as well as the left. However you are wrong on this, I am afraid: "Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801. "Truth advances and error recedes step by step only; and to do our fellow-men the most good in our power, we must lead where we can, follow where we cannot, and still go with them, watching always the favorable moment for helping them to another step." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814. "The known bias of the human mind from motives of interest should lessen the confidence of each party in the justice of their reasoning." --Thomas Jefferson to James Ross, 1786. "I see too many proofs of the imperfection of human reason to entertain wonder or intolerance at any difference of opinion on any subject, and acquiesce in that difference as easily as on a difference of feature or form, experience having long taught me the reasonableness of mutual sacrifices of opinion among those who are to act together for any common object, and the expediency of doing what good we can when we cannot do all we would wish." --Thomas Jefferson to John Randolph, 1803. "Is uniformity of opinion desirable? No more than of face and stature." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVII, 1782. "I tolerate with the utmost latitude the right of others to differ from me in opinion without imputing to them criminality." --Thomas Jefferson to Abigail Adams, 1804.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Stan Shannon wrote:
But frankly, I think I hold the record in the soapbox for admitting to being wrong.
The only time I can remember you refusing to admit reasonable doubt was when I pointed you to the transcript of Cheney's Meet the Press interview and you claimed it never happened.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I'm just not wrong about Marxism. Its like being wrong about the sun rising in the east and setting in the west.
I, too, can see Marxism. And I think that it exists (with different labels) in this country and in this forum. I part company from you only in saying that I see tolitarianism coming from the right as well as the left. However you are wrong on this, I am afraid: "Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801. "Truth advances and error recedes step by step only; and to do our fellow-men the most good in our power, we must lead where we can, follow where we cannot, and still go with them, watching always the favorable moment for helping them to another step." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814. "The known bias of the human mind from motives of interest should lessen the confidence of each party in the justice of their reasoning." --Thomas Jefferson to James Ross, 1786. "I see too many proofs of the imperfection of human reason to entertain wonder or intolerance at any difference of opinion on any subject, and acquiesce in that difference as easily as on a difference of feature or form, experience having long taught me the reasonableness of mutual sacrifices of opinion among those who are to act together for any common object, and the expediency of doing what good we can when we cannot do all we would wish." --Thomas Jefferson to John Randolph, 1803. "Is uniformity of opinion desirable? No more than of face and stature." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVII, 1782. "I tolerate with the utmost latitude the right of others to differ from me in opinion without imputing to them criminality." --Thomas Jefferson to Abigail Adams, 1804.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
But, again, you've already quoted the man as saying that he was wrong. So where does that leave us with all these other guotes? Which are those he considered to be in error by 1811? All we can know with certainly is the very form of government he helped to create, that is the only known variable. And it is that government that has been systematically dismantled over the last century in the name of the very man who risked so much to bring in into existence. Something is amiss somewhere.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.