Bacteria evolve...
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Oh, beauty. Let's see how the nutters refute this. EDIT: by "1-voting" me with cunning and reckless abandon, apparently. :laugh:
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Michael Behe (on his Amazon Blog) discusses this: Multiple Mutations Needed for E. Coli[^]
... I discuss Lenski’s fascinating work in Chapter 7 of The Edge of Evolution, pointing out that all of the beneficial mutations identified from the studies so far seem to have been degradative ones, where functioning genes are knocked out or rendered less active. So random mutation much more easily breaks genes than builds them, even when it helps an organism to survive. That’s a very important point. A process which breaks genes so easily is not one that is going to build up complex coherent molecular systems of many proteins, which fill the cell. In his new paper Lenski reports that, after 30,000 generations, one of his lines of cells has developed the ability to utilize citrate as a food source in the presence of oxygen. (E. coli in the wild can’t do that.) Now, wild E. coli already has a number of enzymes that normally use citrate and can digest it (it’s not some exotic chemical the bacterium has never seen before). However, the wild bacterium lacks an enzyme called a “citrate permease” which can transport citrate from outside the cell through the cell’s membrane into its interior. So all the bacterium needed to do to use citrate was to find a way to get it into the cell. The rest of the machinery for its metabolism was already there. As Lenski put it, “The only known barrier to aerobic growth on citrate is its inability to transport citrate under oxic conditions.” (1) Other workers (cited by Lenski) in the past several decades have also identified mutant E. coli that could use citrate as a food source. In one instance the mutation wasn’t tracked down. (2) In another instance a protein coded by a gene called citT, which normally transports citrate in the absence of oxygen, was overexpressed. (3) The overexpressed protein allowed E. coli to grow on citrate in the presence of oxygen. It seems likely that Lenski’s mutant will turn out to be either this gene or another of the bacterium’s citrate-using genes, tweaked a bit to allow it to transport citrate in the presence of oxygen. (He hasn’t yet tracked down the mutation.) ... [Ilíon: bolding mine]
The Edge of Evolution is Behe's recently published book in which he sets out to determine just *what* "evolut
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Michael Behe (on his Amazon Blog) discusses this: Multiple Mutations Needed for E. Coli[^]
... I discuss Lenski’s fascinating work in Chapter 7 of The Edge of Evolution, pointing out that all of the beneficial mutations identified from the studies so far seem to have been degradative ones, where functioning genes are knocked out or rendered less active. So random mutation much more easily breaks genes than builds them, even when it helps an organism to survive. That’s a very important point. A process which breaks genes so easily is not one that is going to build up complex coherent molecular systems of many proteins, which fill the cell. In his new paper Lenski reports that, after 30,000 generations, one of his lines of cells has developed the ability to utilize citrate as a food source in the presence of oxygen. (E. coli in the wild can’t do that.) Now, wild E. coli already has a number of enzymes that normally use citrate and can digest it (it’s not some exotic chemical the bacterium has never seen before). However, the wild bacterium lacks an enzyme called a “citrate permease” which can transport citrate from outside the cell through the cell’s membrane into its interior. So all the bacterium needed to do to use citrate was to find a way to get it into the cell. The rest of the machinery for its metabolism was already there. As Lenski put it, “The only known barrier to aerobic growth on citrate is its inability to transport citrate under oxic conditions.” (1) Other workers (cited by Lenski) in the past several decades have also identified mutant E. coli that could use citrate as a food source. In one instance the mutation wasn’t tracked down. (2) In another instance a protein coded by a gene called citT, which normally transports citrate in the absence of oxygen, was overexpressed. (3) The overexpressed protein allowed E. coli to grow on citrate in the presence of oxygen. It seems likely that Lenski’s mutant will turn out to be either this gene or another of the bacterium’s citrate-using genes, tweaked a bit to allow it to transport citrate in the presence of oxygen. (He hasn’t yet tracked down the mutation.) ... [Ilíon: bolding mine]
The Edge of Evolution is Behe's recently published book in which he sets out to determine just *what* "evolut
Ilíon wrote:
So all the bacterium needed to do to use citrate was to find a way to get it into the cell.
I.e. it had to acquire a previously-missing ability, which it clearly did, showing evolution occurred. I like the "all", suggesting that it's a trivial thing to accomplish.
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Well, it's a good thing then that science has so consistently proven itself to be completely false.
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Michael Behe (on his Amazon Blog) discusses this: Multiple Mutations Needed for E. Coli[^]
... I discuss Lenski’s fascinating work in Chapter 7 of The Edge of Evolution, pointing out that all of the beneficial mutations identified from the studies so far seem to have been degradative ones, where functioning genes are knocked out or rendered less active. So random mutation much more easily breaks genes than builds them, even when it helps an organism to survive. That’s a very important point. A process which breaks genes so easily is not one that is going to build up complex coherent molecular systems of many proteins, which fill the cell. In his new paper Lenski reports that, after 30,000 generations, one of his lines of cells has developed the ability to utilize citrate as a food source in the presence of oxygen. (E. coli in the wild can’t do that.) Now, wild E. coli already has a number of enzymes that normally use citrate and can digest it (it’s not some exotic chemical the bacterium has never seen before). However, the wild bacterium lacks an enzyme called a “citrate permease” which can transport citrate from outside the cell through the cell’s membrane into its interior. So all the bacterium needed to do to use citrate was to find a way to get it into the cell. The rest of the machinery for its metabolism was already there. As Lenski put it, “The only known barrier to aerobic growth on citrate is its inability to transport citrate under oxic conditions.” (1) Other workers (cited by Lenski) in the past several decades have also identified mutant E. coli that could use citrate as a food source. In one instance the mutation wasn’t tracked down. (2) In another instance a protein coded by a gene called citT, which normally transports citrate in the absence of oxygen, was overexpressed. (3) The overexpressed protein allowed E. coli to grow on citrate in the presence of oxygen. It seems likely that Lenski’s mutant will turn out to be either this gene or another of the bacterium’s citrate-using genes, tweaked a bit to allow it to transport citrate in the presence of oxygen. (He hasn’t yet tracked down the mutation.) ... [Ilíon: bolding mine]
The Edge of Evolution is Behe's recently published book in which he sets out to determine just *what* "evolut
Behe is just another mouthpiece for the "irreducibly complex" b.s. which has already been debunked hundreds of times over using both mathematical and non-mathematical arguments. Irreducible complexity is only important to creationists because it's a fuzzy pseudo-scientific buzz-word that changes with the wind; much like their stance on "design". It's okay, I accept that your school of thought puts heavy emphasis on the imaginary. I mean, garden gnomes help me grow nice tomatoes!
Ilíon wrote:
The Edge of Evolution is Behe's recently published book in which he sets out to determine just *what* "evolution" can be rationally expected to be able to accomplish.
Yeah - has he got a hotline to "God" or does he channel the signals from Beta Centauris directly?
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Behe is just another mouthpiece for the "irreducibly complex" b.s. which has already been debunked hundreds of times over using both mathematical and non-mathematical arguments. Irreducible complexity is only important to creationists because it's a fuzzy pseudo-scientific buzz-word that changes with the wind; much like their stance on "design". It's okay, I accept that your school of thought puts heavy emphasis on the imaginary. I mean, garden gnomes help me grow nice tomatoes!
Ilíon wrote:
The Edge of Evolution is Behe's recently published book in which he sets out to determine just *what* "evolution" can be rationally expected to be able to accomplish.
Yeah - has he got a hotline to "God" or does he channel the signals from Beta Centauris directly?
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73Zeppelin wrote:
... the "irreducibly complex" b.s. which has already been debunked hundreds of times ...
Translation from Darwinista-speak to English: Eiiie! Poor things, you sad, nutter "Darwinists." :((
Ilíon wrote:
nutter
Ah, stealing another insult, are you? Just proves what a dull, unoriginal mind you have.
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73Zeppelin wrote:
... the "irreducibly complex" b.s. which has already been debunked hundreds of times ...
Translation from Darwinista-speak to English: Eiiie! Poor things, you sad, nutter "Darwinists." :((
Ilíon wrote:
Eiiie!
Uh, no. Irreducible complexity is bunk - you know it and I know it. Your ID buddies have to keep it alive by constantly changing it. It's rather pathetic to see the Captains of the HMS ID refuse to abandon a sinking ship. You'd think they would want to retain at least some pride...
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Behe is just another mouthpiece for the "irreducibly complex" b.s. which has already been debunked hundreds of times over using both mathematical and non-mathematical arguments. Irreducible complexity is only important to creationists because it's a fuzzy pseudo-scientific buzz-word that changes with the wind; much like their stance on "design". It's okay, I accept that your school of thought puts heavy emphasis on the imaginary. I mean, garden gnomes help me grow nice tomatoes!
Ilíon wrote:
The Edge of Evolution is Behe's recently published book in which he sets out to determine just *what* "evolution" can be rationally expected to be able to accomplish.
Yeah - has he got a hotline to "God" or does he channel the signals from Beta Centauris directly?
73Zeppelin wrote:
Behe is just another mouthpiece for the "irreducibly complex" b.s. ...
By the way, *that* is indeed an ad hominem. I know how you kiddies like to (incorrectly) toss about accusations that someone or other has committed the dreaded faux pas. Perhaps you can learn something?
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73Zeppelin wrote:
... the "irreducibly complex" b.s. which has already been debunked hundreds of times ...
Translation from Darwinista-speak to English: Eiiie! Poor things, you sad, nutter "Darwinists." :((
Like I said: Irreducible complexity is worthless pseudo-intellectual trash. Even Behe admits it: In the final ruling of Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, Judge Jones specifically singled out Behe and irreducible complexity:[2] "Professor Behe admitted in "Reply to My Critics" that there was a defect in his view of irreducible complexity because, while it purports to be a challenge to natural selection, it does not actually address "the task facing natural selection." and that "Professor Behe wrote that he hoped to "repair this defect in future work..." (Page 73) "As expert testimony revealed, the qualification on what is meant by "irreducible complexity" renders it meaningless as a criticism of evolution. (3:40 (Miller)). In fact, the theory of evolution proffers exaptation as a well-recognized, well-documented explanation for how systems with multiple parts could have evolved through natural means." (Page 74) "By defining irreducible complexity in the way that he has, Professor Behe attempts to exclude the phenomenon of exaptation by definitional fiat, ignoring as he does so abundant evidence which refutes his argument. Notably, the NAS has rejected Professor Behe’s claim for irreducible complexity..." (Page 75) "As irreducible complexity is only a negative argument against evolution, it is refutable and accordingly testable, unlike ID [Intelligent Design], by showing that there are intermediate structures with selectable functions that could have evolved into the allegedly irreducibly complex systems. (2:15-16 (Miller)). Importantly, however, the fact that the negative argument of irreducible complexity is testable does not make testable the argument for ID. (2:15 (Miller); 5:39 (Pennock)). Professor Behe has applied the concept of irreducible complexity to only a few select systems: (1) the bacterial flagellum; (2) the blood-clotting cascade; and (3) the immune system. Contrary to Professor Behe’s assertions with respect to these few biochemical systems among the myriad existing in nature, however, Dr. Miller presented evidence, based upon peer-reviewed studies, that they are not in fact irreducibly complex." (Page 76) "...on cross-examination, Professor Behe was questioned concerning his 1996 claim that science would never find an evolutionary explanation for the immune system. He was presented with fifty-eight peer-reviewed publications, nine books, and several immunology textbook chapters about the evolution of the immune system; however, he simply insisted that this was still not su
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73Zeppelin wrote:
Behe is just another mouthpiece for the "irreducibly complex" b.s. ...
By the way, *that* is indeed an ad hominem. I know how you kiddies like to (incorrectly) toss about accusations that someone or other has committed the dreaded faux pas. Perhaps you can learn something?
Ilíon wrote:
By the way, *that* is indeed an ad hominem.
No it's not, it's fact. Behe is a mouthpiece and irreducible complexity is b.s.
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Ilíon wrote:
Eiiie!
Uh, no. Irreducible complexity is bunk - you know it and I know it. Your ID buddies have to keep it alive by constantly changing it. It's rather pathetic to see the Captains of the HMS ID refuse to abandon a sinking ship. You'd think they would want to retain at least some pride...
73Zeppelin wrote:
Uh, no. Irreducible complexity is bunk - you know it and I know it. Your ID buddies have to keep it alive by constantly changing it. It's rather pathetic to see the Captains of the HMS ID refuse to abandon a sinking ship. You'd think they would want to retain at least some pride...
Are you *really* as ignorant as you come across? Do you really *never* think before you post? "Uh, no. Irreducible complexity is bunk - you know it and I know it." Come now, we *all* know you're talking about "Darwinism" here. "Your ID buddies have to keep it alive by constantly changing it." Come now, we *all* know you're talking about "Darwinism" here. We all know that tomorrow (as yesterday) you'll be praising 'modern evolutionary theory' to the High Heavens for its amazing ability to be constantly changed. "You'd think they would want to retain at least some pride..." I'd have thought that you sad people would at least care about retaining some self-respect. But no, at most you care about "self-esteem."
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Ilíon wrote:
By the way, *that* is indeed an ad hominem.
No it's not, it's fact. Behe is a mouthpiece and irreducible complexity is b.s.
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73Zeppelin wrote:
Uh, no. Irreducible complexity is bunk - you know it and I know it. Your ID buddies have to keep it alive by constantly changing it. It's rather pathetic to see the Captains of the HMS ID refuse to abandon a sinking ship. You'd think they would want to retain at least some pride...
Are you *really* as ignorant as you come across? Do you really *never* think before you post? "Uh, no. Irreducible complexity is bunk - you know it and I know it." Come now, we *all* know you're talking about "Darwinism" here. "Your ID buddies have to keep it alive by constantly changing it." Come now, we *all* know you're talking about "Darwinism" here. We all know that tomorrow (as yesterday) you'll be praising 'modern evolutionary theory' to the High Heavens for its amazing ability to be constantly changed. "You'd think they would want to retain at least some pride..." I'd have thought that you sad people would at least care about retaining some self-respect. But no, at most you care about "self-esteem."
By his own admission, Behe admits it (irreducible complexity) is flawed; just like his "intelligence".
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Like I said: Irreducible complexity is worthless pseudo-intellectual trash. Even Behe admits it: In the final ruling of Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, Judge Jones specifically singled out Behe and irreducible complexity:[2] "Professor Behe admitted in "Reply to My Critics" that there was a defect in his view of irreducible complexity because, while it purports to be a challenge to natural selection, it does not actually address "the task facing natural selection." and that "Professor Behe wrote that he hoped to "repair this defect in future work..." (Page 73) "As expert testimony revealed, the qualification on what is meant by "irreducible complexity" renders it meaningless as a criticism of evolution. (3:40 (Miller)). In fact, the theory of evolution proffers exaptation as a well-recognized, well-documented explanation for how systems with multiple parts could have evolved through natural means." (Page 74) "By defining irreducible complexity in the way that he has, Professor Behe attempts to exclude the phenomenon of exaptation by definitional fiat, ignoring as he does so abundant evidence which refutes his argument. Notably, the NAS has rejected Professor Behe’s claim for irreducible complexity..." (Page 75) "As irreducible complexity is only a negative argument against evolution, it is refutable and accordingly testable, unlike ID [Intelligent Design], by showing that there are intermediate structures with selectable functions that could have evolved into the allegedly irreducibly complex systems. (2:15-16 (Miller)). Importantly, however, the fact that the negative argument of irreducible complexity is testable does not make testable the argument for ID. (2:15 (Miller); 5:39 (Pennock)). Professor Behe has applied the concept of irreducible complexity to only a few select systems: (1) the bacterial flagellum; (2) the blood-clotting cascade; and (3) the immune system. Contrary to Professor Behe’s assertions with respect to these few biochemical systems among the myriad existing in nature, however, Dr. Miller presented evidence, based upon peer-reviewed studies, that they are not in fact irreducibly complex." (Page 76) "...on cross-examination, Professor Behe was questioned concerning his 1996 claim that science would never find an evolutionary explanation for the immune system. He was presented with fifty-eight peer-reviewed publications, nine books, and several immunology textbook chapters about the evolution of the immune system; however, he simply insisted that this was still not su
Baha, just another leftist, science-worshipping tribute to anti-religion.
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Like I said: Irreducible complexity is worthless pseudo-intellectual trash. Even Behe admits it: In the final ruling of Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, Judge Jones specifically singled out Behe and irreducible complexity:[2] "Professor Behe admitted in "Reply to My Critics" that there was a defect in his view of irreducible complexity because, while it purports to be a challenge to natural selection, it does not actually address "the task facing natural selection." and that "Professor Behe wrote that he hoped to "repair this defect in future work..." (Page 73) "As expert testimony revealed, the qualification on what is meant by "irreducible complexity" renders it meaningless as a criticism of evolution. (3:40 (Miller)). In fact, the theory of evolution proffers exaptation as a well-recognized, well-documented explanation for how systems with multiple parts could have evolved through natural means." (Page 74) "By defining irreducible complexity in the way that he has, Professor Behe attempts to exclude the phenomenon of exaptation by definitional fiat, ignoring as he does so abundant evidence which refutes his argument. Notably, the NAS has rejected Professor Behe’s claim for irreducible complexity..." (Page 75) "As irreducible complexity is only a negative argument against evolution, it is refutable and accordingly testable, unlike ID [Intelligent Design], by showing that there are intermediate structures with selectable functions that could have evolved into the allegedly irreducibly complex systems. (2:15-16 (Miller)). Importantly, however, the fact that the negative argument of irreducible complexity is testable does not make testable the argument for ID. (2:15 (Miller); 5:39 (Pennock)). Professor Behe has applied the concept of irreducible complexity to only a few select systems: (1) the bacterial flagellum; (2) the blood-clotting cascade; and (3) the immune system. Contrary to Professor Behe’s assertions with respect to these few biochemical systems among the myriad existing in nature, however, Dr. Miller presented evidence, based upon peer-reviewed studies, that they are not in fact irreducibly complex." (Page 76) "...on cross-examination, Professor Behe was questioned concerning his 1996 claim that science would never find an evolutionary explanation for the immune system. He was presented with fifty-eight peer-reviewed publications, nine books, and several immunology textbook chapters about the evolution of the immune system; however, he simply insisted that this was still not su
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Baha, just another leftist, science-worshipping tribute to anti-religion.
Brady Kelly wrote:
Baha, just another leftist, science-worshipping tribute to anti-religion.
Huh?
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You really *are* incapable of sustained rational thought -- and logical consistency -- aren't you?
Ilíon wrote:
You really *are* incapable of sustained rational thought -- and logical consistency -- aren't you?
Thank you for admitting defeat. We can move on now.
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Baha, just another leftist, science-worshipping tribute to anti-religion.
Brady Kelly wrote:
Baha, just another leftist, science-worshipping tribute to anti-religion.
Well, no. The Dip's post is a tribute to his apparent inability to think. But, look on the bright side: perhaps I'm wrong? Perhaps he simply *chooses* to not think.