U.S. Politics...
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Expect lots and lots of silence Stan. Most of the ones complaining just like to read their own words and love to hate the US regardless of what's really happening in the world. Often times their own governments are doing the exact same things that they whine the US is doing. I doubt many will have any real ideas about what alternatives they'd like to see. I'd like to single out Colin Davies as one who is almost always intelligent, thoughtful and reasonable and I do NOT include Colin in the above group!!
Mike Mullikin - I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals. Sir Winston Churchill
Mike Mullikin wrote: Expect lots and lots of silence Stan. Most of the ones complaining just like to read their own words and love to hate the US regardless of what's really happening in the world. Often times their own governments are doing the exact same things that they whine the US is doing. I doubt many will have any real ideas about what alternatives they'd like to see. By alternatives they won't be able to list individual politicians as most of them don't get international coverage. Me, I'd like to see less arrogance and more admittance of your (country not individual) mistakes. The only instances I can think of for now is placing puppets in power during war instead of finishing it off. Then having said puppet come back, bite you on the arse and start newer and bigger wars. Examples (I hope they are right), Saddam Hussein, Usama Bin Laden, Gaddhafy. That's about it as America itself doesn't bother me. It's the small dick syndrome that requires nuclear weapons and trips around the world proclaiming 'Look I have a big dick, oh and by the way check out the nukes'. Individuals are fine as the people I have worked with in the US and met on CP attest. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Reverend Stan wrote: Besides, I believe that capitalism, left to its own devices, has the potential of becoming a much truer, and more reliable, form of democracy than any formal political system ever will. I trust capitalism more than I trust politics. <seemingly facetious though serious question> When Rockerfeller (hope I got the right bloke) got too powerful and the US Monopoly Law was bought in, was this by politics or capitalism? </seemingly facetious though serious question> My understanding of this (limited as it is) says that Rockerfeller using capitalism got way out of control and too powerful. So it was poilitics that reeled him back into reasonable control again. So I would say capitalism with certain checks is the way to go. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
Michael Martin wrote: So I would say capitalism with certain checks is the way to go. I agree, for the time being anyway. Capitalism, like politics, is an evolving system and for now it still needs some degree of regulatory interaction from government. What I mean is that if it evolves properly, it could become a system that so equitably and efficiently distributes wealth and opportunity that the need for government as we know it today will simply dwindle away. Capitalism needs people to have money, it needs people to be free to spend that money at their own discretion or else it cannot exist. It is a matter of getting everyone to recognize that simple reality, and good things could happen. But you cannot force it to happen by means of government, or the entire thing falls apart. It has to be allowed to happen naturally, and freely with an occassional gentle nudge from government. Obviously, we are not there yet, and I'm not naive enough to think that it will happen any time soon, and probably not at all, I'm just saying I believe it to be a valid possibility. It could happen. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Typical BS - nothing constructive.
Mike Mullikin - I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals. Sir Winston Churchill
Mike Mullikin wrote: Typical BS - nothing constructive While not supporting an alternative she did recite facts, where's the BS?. I think a reply like that has a potential of becoming self referring. "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!" -Rincewind
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Trollslayer wrote: There wasn't any real difference between the two candidates so the vote wasn't much use this time. Depends on how you see it I suppose. To me, the differences could not have been more profound. Trollslayer wrote: More right wing ? Lets see, US soldiers to be protected from the International Criminal Court (which only acts if countries do not carry out their own legal process) yet suspected Al Qaeda fighters are called 'illegal combatants' and denied rights unless they are aemrican when they are seperated out. I'm afraid you are going to have to give me a more well reasoned argument as to why those are bad things. Seems pretty logical to me. As an American, why should I have any sort of respect for an international court of any kind? I'm pretty damned leary of the U.S. federal court system, it is going to take some convicing to get me to be comfortable with a global one which will undoubtedly be dominated by American hating European intellectuals. Trollslayer wrote: Oh yes - and 1 in 24 amricans to spy on others. I agree completely. Except that to me that is a Left-Wing response not Right-Wing. A Right-Wing response would have been to so thoroughly eliminate the threat that no such spying would be necessary. If we refuse to destroy those who sponser and support terrorism, spying on each other is about the only other option. Wouldn't you agree? How would you deal with the problem? "Human imagination has been sculpted by the universe within which it was born" Hmmmm...
Reverend Stan wrote: which will undoubtedly be dominated by American hating European intellectuals. Which it very possibly is, now that you bailed out, tails between the legs and all.... I think the US could do better if it became a player in the Team instead of trying to sort out the problems alone. "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!" -Rincewind
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Typical BS - nothing constructive While not supporting an alternative she did recite facts, where's the BS?. I think a reply like that has a potential of becoming self referring. "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!" -Rincewind
jan larsen wrote: While not supporting an alternative she did recite facts, where's the BS?. Stan asked for direct advice and alternative solutions - not more whining! jan larsen wrote: I think a reply like that has a potential of becoming self referring. Think what you want, I stand by my comment.
Mike Mullikin - I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals. Sir Winston Churchill
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Reverend Stan wrote: which will undoubtedly be dominated by American hating European intellectuals. Which it very possibly is, now that you bailed out, tails between the legs and all.... I think the US could do better if it became a player in the Team instead of trying to sort out the problems alone. "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!" -Rincewind
jan larsen wrote: I think the US could do better if it became a player in the Team instead of trying to sort out the problems alone. Problem being that every "team" needs a "coach" otherwise the "players" are all moving in different directions with different strategies and motivations. With the wide range of cultural philosophies, religions and forms of government in the world I do not believe it's possible to find a "coach" that everyone could accept.
Mike Mullikin - I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals. Sir Winston Churchill
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jan larsen wrote: I think the US could do better if it became a player in the Team instead of trying to sort out the problems alone. Problem being that every "team" needs a "coach" otherwise the "players" are all moving in different directions with different strategies and motivations. With the wide range of cultural philosophies, religions and forms of government in the world I do not believe it's possible to find a "coach" that everyone could accept.
Mike Mullikin - I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals. Sir Winston Churchill
Just because it is a big challenge it doesn't mean that it isn't worth the effort to try. The coach/team analogy could also be pushed to USA and the countries of EU, and I don't think you would propose total Anarchy just because the respective governments only got about 50% backup. And it IS totally anarchy on the international scene right now, US is TAKING the lead as opposed to being the said coach. As a somewhat vague answer to Stan, because I do not know quite that many US politicians, I for one would like to see a government that was more aligned to join the rest of the world in the battle of a better place to live and a free world for ALL people. "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!" -Rincewind
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Just because it is a big challenge it doesn't mean that it isn't worth the effort to try. The coach/team analogy could also be pushed to USA and the countries of EU, and I don't think you would propose total Anarchy just because the respective governments only got about 50% backup. And it IS totally anarchy on the international scene right now, US is TAKING the lead as opposed to being the said coach. As a somewhat vague answer to Stan, because I do not know quite that many US politicians, I for one would like to see a government that was more aligned to join the rest of the world in the battle of a better place to live and a free world for ALL people. "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!" -Rincewind
I think from an American perspective the big problem is that Europeans seem to believe that they are the intellectual masters of the universe simply because they have all apperently gone through the same process of socialist indoctrination. Europeans appear to harbor some bizarre belief in the inherent supriority of their political idealogies and simply will not tolerate the American POV. To you guys we will always be 'fools' until we submit entirely to your world view. What is odd about all this is that we are a much older and more stable true democracy than any country in Europe (not to imply that we are perfect, far from it). But do we get any respect for that? Hell, no. We have more experience and more success at managing world affairs than any European country has ever managed to achieve. Tell me why I, as an American, should be interested in joining your team? Your countries are places we escaped from. And it is hard to see much imporovement. Your civilization is our cultural nightmare. Show me that you have learned from our example, and join our team. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Just because it is a big challenge it doesn't mean that it isn't worth the effort to try. The coach/team analogy could also be pushed to USA and the countries of EU, and I don't think you would propose total Anarchy just because the respective governments only got about 50% backup. And it IS totally anarchy on the international scene right now, US is TAKING the lead as opposed to being the said coach. As a somewhat vague answer to Stan, because I do not know quite that many US politicians, I for one would like to see a government that was more aligned to join the rest of the world in the battle of a better place to live and a free world for ALL people. "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!" -Rincewind
jan larsen wrote: Just because it is a big challenge it doesn't mean that it isn't worth the effort to try. On the other side of the coin, why spend the time and money on something that is doomed from the beginning? In the midwest of the US we call that "beating a dead horse." jan larsen wrote: And it IS totally anarchy on the international scene right now, US is TAKING the lead as opposed to being the said coach. I agree that anarchy currently rules, but I don't think the world would want the US as the "coach". I know I certainly wouldn't want the US to be the "coach". IMHO the "coach" (and in fact the entire "team") is doomed to failure. I'm curious why none of the people on CP who have complained about the US not joining this "court" have said a word about China and Russia also refusing to join? Seems you have a double standard, no?
Mike Mullikin - I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals. Sir Winston Churchill
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jan larsen wrote: Just because it is a big challenge it doesn't mean that it isn't worth the effort to try. On the other side of the coin, why spend the time and money on something that is doomed from the beginning? In the midwest of the US we call that "beating a dead horse." jan larsen wrote: And it IS totally anarchy on the international scene right now, US is TAKING the lead as opposed to being the said coach. I agree that anarchy currently rules, but I don't think the world would want the US as the "coach". I know I certainly wouldn't want the US to be the "coach". IMHO the "coach" (and in fact the entire "team") is doomed to failure. I'm curious why none of the people on CP who have complained about the US not joining this "court" have said a word about China and Russia also refusing to join? Seems you have a double standard, no?
Mike Mullikin - I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals. Sir Winston Churchill
Mike Mullikin wrote: know I certainly wouldn't want the US to be the "coach". IMHO the "coach" (and in fact the entire "team") is doomed to failure. For some reason the Chicago Cubs keep popping into my head after reading this. :laugh:
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"Like it or not, I'm right!" -
jan larsen wrote: Just because it is a big challenge it doesn't mean that it isn't worth the effort to try. On the other side of the coin, why spend the time and money on something that is doomed from the beginning? In the midwest of the US we call that "beating a dead horse." jan larsen wrote: And it IS totally anarchy on the international scene right now, US is TAKING the lead as opposed to being the said coach. I agree that anarchy currently rules, but I don't think the world would want the US as the "coach". I know I certainly wouldn't want the US to be the "coach". IMHO the "coach" (and in fact the entire "team") is doomed to failure. I'm curious why none of the people on CP who have complained about the US not joining this "court" have said a word about China and Russia also refusing to join? Seems you have a double standard, no?
Mike Mullikin - I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals. Sir Winston Churchill
Mike Mullikin wrote: I'm curious why none of the people on CP who have complained about the US not joining this "court" have said a word about China and Russia also refusing to join? Seems you have a double standard, no? First: I didn't know that those countries weren't joining though they should be some of the most obvious cases, and that exactly is the point. Why are you guys suddenly in the same ringside as the guys who no one would expect to join such a court because they are some of the very nations that most probably would deliver the cases?. "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!" -Rincewind
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I think from an American perspective the big problem is that Europeans seem to believe that they are the intellectual masters of the universe simply because they have all apperently gone through the same process of socialist indoctrination. Europeans appear to harbor some bizarre belief in the inherent supriority of their political idealogies and simply will not tolerate the American POV. To you guys we will always be 'fools' until we submit entirely to your world view. What is odd about all this is that we are a much older and more stable true democracy than any country in Europe (not to imply that we are perfect, far from it). But do we get any respect for that? Hell, no. We have more experience and more success at managing world affairs than any European country has ever managed to achieve. Tell me why I, as an American, should be interested in joining your team? Your countries are places we escaped from. And it is hard to see much imporovement. Your civilization is our cultural nightmare. Show me that you have learned from our example, and join our team. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: What is odd about all this is that we are a much older and more stable true democracy than any country in Europe (not to imply that we are perfect, far from it). That is so obviously not true, you yourself have implied that you have not so much a Democracy as a Republic. I think I remember something about a certain election not long ago, just to put it in perspective. ;P Reverend Stan wrote: We have more experience and more success at managing world affairs than any European country has ever managed to achieve. More experience?, maybe, more success?, hell no!... But I guess our respective views would be hard to prove, so I don't think any further discussion on that subject would be very constructive. Reverend Stan wrote: Your civilization is our cultural nightmare What do you refer to?. "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!" -Rincewind
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Reverend Stan wrote: What is odd about all this is that we are a much older and more stable true democracy than any country in Europe (not to imply that we are perfect, far from it). That is so obviously not true, you yourself have implied that you have not so much a Democracy as a Republic. I think I remember something about a certain election not long ago, just to put it in perspective. ;P Reverend Stan wrote: We have more experience and more success at managing world affairs than any European country has ever managed to achieve. More experience?, maybe, more success?, hell no!... But I guess our respective views would be hard to prove, so I don't think any further discussion on that subject would be very constructive. Reverend Stan wrote: Your civilization is our cultural nightmare What do you refer to?. "It could have been worse, it could have been ME!" -Rincewind
jan larsen wrote: That is so obviously not true, you yourself have implied that you have not so much a Democracy as a Republic. I think I remember something about a certain election not long ago, just to put it in perspective You are correct to point that out. By "true democracy" I meant to imply a country were all of the governing officials were elected by some kind of a democratic process, republican or otherwise. Even England, in 1776 still had a very powerful, unelected, King in a very real position of power. But obviously, England had democratic processes at work at the time, they just were not quite there yet. Out last election went directly according the principles of our constitution, dispite the Democrat's attempts to circumvent the law. That *was* an example of a republic, not a democracy, at work - the law trumps the mob. jan larsen wrote: More experience?, maybe, more success?, hell no!... But I guess our respective views would be hard to prove, so I don't think any further discussion on that subject would be very constructive Agreed. I simply meant we have avoided the kinds of major world conflagrations which Europeans have historically had a tendency to resort to. jan larsen wrote: What do you refer to?. Europeans civilization has never achieved the American ideal of the individual as an agent responsible for his own welfare. You guys are comfortable with a state of dependency upon political systems which an American would feel oppressed by. You look to your government the way a child looks to its parent. Unfortunantly, we are migrating ever more rapidly in your direction. I just hope we can stop before we get there. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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jan larsen wrote: That is so obviously not true, you yourself have implied that you have not so much a Democracy as a Republic. I think I remember something about a certain election not long ago, just to put it in perspective You are correct to point that out. By "true democracy" I meant to imply a country were all of the governing officials were elected by some kind of a democratic process, republican or otherwise. Even England, in 1776 still had a very powerful, unelected, King in a very real position of power. But obviously, England had democratic processes at work at the time, they just were not quite there yet. Out last election went directly according the principles of our constitution, dispite the Democrat's attempts to circumvent the law. That *was* an example of a republic, not a democracy, at work - the law trumps the mob. jan larsen wrote: More experience?, maybe, more success?, hell no!... But I guess our respective views would be hard to prove, so I don't think any further discussion on that subject would be very constructive Agreed. I simply meant we have avoided the kinds of major world conflagrations which Europeans have historically had a tendency to resort to. jan larsen wrote: What do you refer to?. Europeans civilization has never achieved the American ideal of the individual as an agent responsible for his own welfare. You guys are comfortable with a state of dependency upon political systems which an American would feel oppressed by. You look to your government the way a child looks to its parent. Unfortunantly, we are migrating ever more rapidly in your direction. I just hope we can stop before we get there. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: Europeans civilization has never achieved the American ideal of the individual as an agent responsible for his own welfare. You guys are comfortable with a state of dependency upon political systems which an American would feel oppressed by. You look to your government the way a child looks to its parent. Unfortunantly, we are migrating ever more rapidly in your direction. I just hope we can stop before we get there. daddy daddy I don't understand (running to the prime minister :) ) But seriously I cannot agree with that. It's true that we have a different social system, but most people *I* know (including myself) would be very embarrassed to use it and would do close to anything to get out of the system. It's a specific breed of people ( you have them too, they're always on Jerry Springer) who tend to try to get the most out of these systems. The advantage of having such a system does not outweigth these problems for me. I can understand that you take a different approach in the US so I am not bothered with that. I only have a little more sympathy for beggars/homeless in the US because here you have really no reason to be a beggar or a homeless, if you go to the right office you can get an appartment and a social security funding, where if you are in the US there is alway a chance of getting unemployed and ending on the street. Regards Rutger