Refactoring the code or dessign?
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dojohansen wrote:
I was debating whether or not *generally* speaking it is smart to develop unit tests BEFORE or AFTER a refactoring of code. Unfortunately not one word you input related to this subject
Perhaps it's because you replied to my post that said:
led mike wrote:
Yes. It's hard to imagine someone is thinking about design and architecture and refactoring but they haven't yet thought about the fact they should have unit tests. As hard as it might be to imagine that someone, no doubt they exist.
What I was discussing in that post as well as my last one to you was the importance of Unit Tests during INITIAL DEVELOPMENT. The original post used terms like "old architecture" which I took to mean in production.
dojohansen wrote:
It is my OPINION that it is not ALWAYS or AUTOMATICALLY best to develop unit tests PRIOR TO REFACTORING CODE
It's my opinion that it's insane to be in production without unit tests. And no this is not some new belief based on TDD, I learned to use Unit Tests long before I ever heard the term Test Driven Development and long before any frameworks existed, AFAIK. Therefore I was never discussing the merits of developing unit tests based on a need to refactor in post production since the Unit Tests would already exist prior to production. My comments were only to the point of developing unit tests as a standard practice of software development, period. So you can get as upset as you want with what I said, it doesn't change any of that.
led mike
Somebody's been really hammering you with 1 votes on this board Mike. I've corrected the balance on some of them, and will continue to do so as time allows.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Somebody's been really hammering you with 1 votes on this board Mike. I've corrected the balance on some of them, and will continue to do so as time allows.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Somebody'
:laugh: Yeah, probably the same guy that was giving you the 2's. He explained that was an accident though. Apparently he didn't like my response to his argumentative reply in this thread about the importance of Unit Tests. Like I give a crap what he thinks. :laugh::laugh:
led mike
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Somebody'
:laugh: Yeah, probably the same guy that was giving you the 2's. He explained that was an accident though. Apparently he didn't like my response to his argumentative reply in this thread about the importance of Unit Tests. Like I give a crap what he thinks. :laugh::laugh:
led mike
Ahhh. Yup - I was reading this thread through with interest, especially because it highlights the differences in opinion in whether or not UT is important. It's a shame that people miss the point that good up front UT is a great way to force yourself to think more about the architecture of the system, and to look at putting good practices into place.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Ahhh. Yup - I was reading this thread through with interest, especially because it highlights the differences in opinion in whether or not UT is important. It's a shame that people miss the point that good up front UT is a great way to force yourself to think more about the architecture of the system, and to look at putting good practices into place.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
It's a shame that people miss the point
Sure, it's one in long list of points people miss in this field regarding good practices. witnessed here every single day. "here" having multiple usages: 1) Code Project 2) My peers and *gulp* managers or where I work 3) Me myself and I :laugh: Well maybe I don't miss them as much as I don't know them. I remember when I started out in University we worked with Unix and DOS. This was pre Windows and PCs were starting to move out so DOS became the hot bed. My internship, which became a job (long story or not), was DOS POS, yes Point of Sale and Piece of Shite. :laugh: Anyway back then my vision of the future was I would be one of these guys that new almost everything about PC development. Then came (for me) OO, Windows and the Internet, etc., and I soon realized I would ever only scratch the surface or not, depends on your point of view. Most days it feels like not. Anyway people that don't have a clue and don't even try, those that ignore people like Cunningham, Fowler, Beck, Booch and well there are just so many, as though they think they know better than they do I find annoying, at best, at worst they seem disgraceful. For my part I just hope I can even understand their points, the idea that I could judge them is not something I would even consider.
led mike
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
It's a shame that people miss the point
Sure, it's one in long list of points people miss in this field regarding good practices. witnessed here every single day. "here" having multiple usages: 1) Code Project 2) My peers and *gulp* managers or where I work 3) Me myself and I :laugh: Well maybe I don't miss them as much as I don't know them. I remember when I started out in University we worked with Unix and DOS. This was pre Windows and PCs were starting to move out so DOS became the hot bed. My internship, which became a job (long story or not), was DOS POS, yes Point of Sale and Piece of Shite. :laugh: Anyway back then my vision of the future was I would be one of these guys that new almost everything about PC development. Then came (for me) OO, Windows and the Internet, etc., and I soon realized I would ever only scratch the surface or not, depends on your point of view. Most days it feels like not. Anyway people that don't have a clue and don't even try, those that ignore people like Cunningham, Fowler, Beck, Booch and well there are just so many, as though they think they know better than they do I find annoying, at best, at worst they seem disgraceful. For my part I just hope I can even understand their points, the idea that I could judge them is not something I would even consider.
led mike
led mike wrote:
I soon realized I would ever only scratch the surface
Yup - the more I learn, the more it becomes apparent that there's more to learn. For me, the forums are a great place to learn from people I respect. Even if I don't often ask questions on the forums, it's amazing how much I've picked up from the better answers.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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led mike wrote:
I soon realized I would ever only scratch the surface
Yup - the more I learn, the more it becomes apparent that there's more to learn. For me, the forums are a great place to learn from people I respect. Even if I don't often ask questions on the forums, it's amazing how much I've picked up from the better answers.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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dojohansen wrote:
I was debating whether or not *generally* speaking it is smart to develop unit tests BEFORE or AFTER a refactoring of code. Unfortunately not one word you input related to this subject
Perhaps it's because you replied to my post that said:
led mike wrote:
Yes. It's hard to imagine someone is thinking about design and architecture and refactoring but they haven't yet thought about the fact they should have unit tests. As hard as it might be to imagine that someone, no doubt they exist.
What I was discussing in that post as well as my last one to you was the importance of Unit Tests during INITIAL DEVELOPMENT. The original post used terms like "old architecture" which I took to mean in production.
dojohansen wrote:
It is my OPINION that it is not ALWAYS or AUTOMATICALLY best to develop unit tests PRIOR TO REFACTORING CODE
It's my opinion that it's insane to be in production without unit tests. And no this is not some new belief based on TDD, I learned to use Unit Tests long before I ever heard the term Test Driven Development and long before any frameworks existed, AFAIK. Therefore I was never discussing the merits of developing unit tests based on a need to refactor in post production since the Unit Tests would already exist prior to production. My comments were only to the point of developing unit tests as a standard practice of software development, period. So you can get as upset as you want with what I said, it doesn't change any of that.
led mike
Well it wasn't YOUR thread. Just because you go off on a tangent doesn't mean everyone has to. I tried to write a post relevant to the thread, which was about existing code and refactoring. While it may be "insane" to get into production without unit tests, nevermind that 99.9% of all systems ever developed in the history of the universe has done exactly this, this is irrelevant. You don't get any points for deliberately misunderstanding.
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Well it wasn't YOUR thread. Just because you go off on a tangent doesn't mean everyone has to. I tried to write a post relevant to the thread, which was about existing code and refactoring. While it may be "insane" to get into production without unit tests, nevermind that 99.9% of all systems ever developed in the history of the universe has done exactly this, this is irrelevant. You don't get any points for deliberately misunderstanding.
dojohansen wrote:
Well it wasn't YOUR thread. Just because you go off on a tangent doesn't mean everyone has to.
YOu replied to me you fucking moron. If you didn't want to talk to me or my point then you could have replied to someone else. What fucking idiot.
dojohansen wrote:
You don't get any points for deliberately misunderstanding.
I have not deliberately misunderstood anything. Sure there is a lot of legacy code that has no unit tests, should you create them? There is no cook book answer to that. Each project is different and therefore must be considered based on it's own unique criteria, period. That said, what's legacy code? In this context, what it means to me is anything I was not an original developer of because I had no control over the creation of unit tests or the design of it, therefore to me it's legacy. If I am developing new code, which includes new modules, classes, libraries whatever for use in legacy systems, I will develop unit tests, period, that's what I have done for the 18 years I have been working in this field and I am not about to stop now just because you come along thinking you know something substantial. You don't, anymore than I do. I didn't develop or discover the concept of unit tests, I was taught to use them by people far more skilled in this field then you or I will ever be.
led mike
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dojohansen wrote:
Well it wasn't YOUR thread. Just because you go off on a tangent doesn't mean everyone has to.
YOu replied to me you fucking moron. If you didn't want to talk to me or my point then you could have replied to someone else. What fucking idiot.
dojohansen wrote:
You don't get any points for deliberately misunderstanding.
I have not deliberately misunderstood anything. Sure there is a lot of legacy code that has no unit tests, should you create them? There is no cook book answer to that. Each project is different and therefore must be considered based on it's own unique criteria, period. That said, what's legacy code? In this context, what it means to me is anything I was not an original developer of because I had no control over the creation of unit tests or the design of it, therefore to me it's legacy. If I am developing new code, which includes new modules, classes, libraries whatever for use in legacy systems, I will develop unit tests, period, that's what I have done for the 18 years I have been working in this field and I am not about to stop now just because you come along thinking you know something substantial. You don't, anymore than I do. I didn't develop or discover the concept of unit tests, I was taught to use them by people far more skilled in this field then you or I will ever be.
led mike
led mike wrote:
YOu replied to me you f***ing moron.
We're seeing more and more of your true colors I guess. But you see, I was NOT replying just to you. I was replying to anyone involved in or just reading the thread, but since my starting point was a desire to take issue with dogmatic recommandations, not to mention your arrogant "how can there POSSIBLY be ANYONE out there who don't do things your way" attitude I chose to reply to your post.
led mike wrote:
... and I am not about to stop now just because you come along thinking you know something substantial. You don't, anymore than I do.
I'll let those who read decide for themselves. In any case that isn't the issue. And you continue to debate AS IF I have uttered anything even remotely suggesting that one should not use unit tests. I assumed you were DELIBERATELY misunderstanding but I am beginning to doubt if you can control it. Have a nice weekend.
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led mike wrote:
YOu replied to me you f***ing moron.
We're seeing more and more of your true colors I guess. But you see, I was NOT replying just to you. I was replying to anyone involved in or just reading the thread, but since my starting point was a desire to take issue with dogmatic recommandations, not to mention your arrogant "how can there POSSIBLY be ANYONE out there who don't do things your way" attitude I chose to reply to your post.
led mike wrote:
... and I am not about to stop now just because you come along thinking you know something substantial. You don't, anymore than I do.
I'll let those who read decide for themselves. In any case that isn't the issue. And you continue to debate AS IF I have uttered anything even remotely suggesting that one should not use unit tests. I assumed you were DELIBERATELY misunderstanding but I am beginning to doubt if you can control it. Have a nice weekend.
dojohansen wrote:
AS IF I have uttered anything even remotely suggesting that one should not use unit tests. I assumed you were DELIBERATELY misunderstanding but I am beginning to doubt if you can control it.
No, but I did lose the thread as it has been a long one so, yes, I was wrong, you are correct, you never suggested that, my mistake. We were basically talking about two different things in regards to unit tests and it seems we might actually have similar views on both of them. Therefore it is at least partly my fault, if not completely, that we ended up in a confrontation rather than a discussion.
dojohansen wrote:
Have a nice weekend.
thanks, same to you.
led mike