Are the Russians justified in attacking Georgia?
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No. I don't think for a single second that Putin has any interest in the people of South Ossetia, except as convenient pawns in his latest "game". Make no mistake, that's exactly what's going on in the Caucasus - a return to Cold War style power plays, and sod everyone who gets in his way. He's testing boundaries, knowing full well that Russian support is going to be needed to deal with Iran, the coming reliance on Russian energy and finance in Europe and the fact that Russia has huge reserves of oil. Not to mention the fact that Western governments would seek a diplomatic settlement rather than risk an armed conflict - and the ultimate destruction of Humanity on this planet (anybody actually think nuclear disarmament actually happened?) Just look at the other things he's been up to: Executing Russian "dissidents" on foreign soil. Executing out-spoken journalists on home soil. Chechnya... to name but three and could think of on the spot. If he was interested in protecting South Ossetia he would have gone to the UN and sought international support and condemnation of Georgia. But he isn't, so didn't. In many ways he's far more dangerous than Khrushchev ever was, because he holds more cards in his hand and not just the nuclear deterrent. He's also quite clearly insane.
***The collected future Mrs. Martin Hughes*** Foreign Policy
martin_hughes wrote:
Make no mistake, that's exactly what's going on in the Caucasus - a return to Cold War style power plays....
and just as in the past, as you can tell from the "1" votes on this thread, he has the same useful idiots siding with him. I do have to thank him though, I believe it'll help elect John McCain.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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So its the French fault that Rusians are.... It seems you have a thing for the French
Bassam Saoud wrote:
So its the French fault that Rusians are....
abso-fucking-lutely. The moronic "cease fire" permitted Russia Putin to interpret the language such that he could keep invaders on Georgian land until the French grew balls.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Bassam Saoud wrote:
So its the French fault that Rusians are....
abso-fucking-lutely. The moronic "cease fire" permitted Russia Putin to interpret the language such that he could keep invaders on Georgian land until the French grew balls.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
abso-f***ing-lutely
:laugh: :laugh:
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No. I don't think for a single second that Putin has any interest in the people of South Ossetia, except as convenient pawns in his latest "game". Make no mistake, that's exactly what's going on in the Caucasus - a return to Cold War style power plays, and sod everyone who gets in his way. He's testing boundaries, knowing full well that Russian support is going to be needed to deal with Iran, the coming reliance on Russian energy and finance in Europe and the fact that Russia has huge reserves of oil. Not to mention the fact that Western governments would seek a diplomatic settlement rather than risk an armed conflict - and the ultimate destruction of Humanity on this planet (anybody actually think nuclear disarmament actually happened?) Just look at the other things he's been up to: Executing Russian "dissidents" on foreign soil. Executing out-spoken journalists on home soil. Chechnya... to name but three and could think of on the spot. If he was interested in protecting South Ossetia he would have gone to the UN and sought international support and condemnation of Georgia. But he isn't, so didn't. In many ways he's far more dangerous than Khrushchev ever was, because he holds more cards in his hand and not just the nuclear deterrent. He's also quite clearly insane.
***The collected future Mrs. Martin Hughes*** Foreign Policy
martin_hughes wrote:
He's also quite clearly insane.
I think not, and not only that, I think he is good for Russia. He is turned it around from being a corpse that western companies and the mafia crowed over as they georged themselves stupid. He stopped that. He has made it increasingly difficult for western companies to operate and taken back a lot that went into private hands after the collapse of comunism. The result is that Russia has no national debt, massive reserves, and a strong confident leader. His mistake is that he doesnt have to behave so ruthlessly at home and abroad since generally he had I would say fairly wide support in both. Suppport that is now fading.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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given how the Georgians have been treating South Ossetians recently.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
I find that international politics works on power equations and public opinion in respective countries, not on whether something is justified or not. Georgia (mis)calculated that Russia would not hastily launch a military campaign because of its close relations with the NATO; probably they felt that the resistance could be quenched while Russia works on a diplomatic solution. Local self-governance that satisfies local population is the only alternative to full freedom. Georgia would have done well if they had negotiated autonomous province arrangements with the resistance groups in South Ossetia and Abkhazia instead of moving military in there. Of course, Georgia has offered large degree of autonomy before; but I still feel that military action was irresponsible considering Russian proximity and interest in these regions. My point is that no one will (or want to) take on Russia militarily, and they know that. Even if the rest of the world agrees that Russia is not right, retaliation will be limited to a few stern warnings from USA, NATO etc. When US went into war in Iraq with just a few countries backing it, US also knew that opposition would be just a few statements made by head of states, and that too will subside over time.
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Rob Caldecott wrote:
How is this different to Kosovo
Lets talk timeline Milosevic sent troops into Kosovo in February; In March (but not one month but thirteen months later)after repeated peace talks are held in Paris and in Serbia but which lead no-where because the Serb parliament refuses to permit NATO peacekeepers in Kosovo, NATO authorised air-strikes -- but no repeat NO invasion of Yugoslavia. As soon as Yugoslavia begins the withdrawal of their troops from Kosovo, the air-strike are ended. So let me ask: Except to a blind, deaf, and dumb bleeding heart, How the fuck are they similar?!!!
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Lets talk timeline
OK. The war between Serbia and NATO ended in 1999. As a result, Serbian forces were pulled-out of Kosovo and NATO peacekeepers entered that region. (I'm not asking you here whether on not NATO air-strike was authorised by the UN) The war between Georgions and Ossetians ended in 1992, Georgians were pulled-out and Russian peacekeepers entered South Ossetia region right after that. Now, imagine for a second, that a few hours ago Serbian forces invaded Kosovo trying to gain control of that region and already killed dozen of NATO peacekeepers along with hundreds of Kosovar civilians. So let me ask: how fast would react NATO in this case? Would it wait another thirteen months to start figthing Serbs?
Regards, Nikolay
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fat_boy wrote:
Putting a soldier in a tank in a foreign country
Not if you have given him orders to withdraw, as the Russians have been claiming they were doing for a week.
fat_boy wrote:
Like wise I am sure the behaviour of some troops in Iraq is not US policy.
If I remember correctly, the majority of Iraqis greeted the US and UK as liberators. (Yes, the situation changed because of the idiotic mistakes made by the US.) Have you seem lots of footage of Georgians greeting the Russians with open arms? Perhaps you could point us to a website showing Russian troops handing out candy bars to the kids - as opposed to running them down with their tanks.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
If I remember correctly, the majority of Iraqis greeted the US and UK as liberators.
Seems like your memory fails you. :)
Oakman wrote:
Have you seem lots of footage of Georgians greeting the Russians with open arms?
Are you kidding? Why should they greet Russians? Or did Serbian kids greet Americans for bombing Serbia? As far as Ossetian kids, yes, they are greeting Russians.
Regards, Nikolay
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I find that international politics works on power equations and public opinion in respective countries, not on whether something is justified or not. Georgia (mis)calculated that Russia would not hastily launch a military campaign because of its close relations with the NATO; probably they felt that the resistance could be quenched while Russia works on a diplomatic solution. Local self-governance that satisfies local population is the only alternative to full freedom. Georgia would have done well if they had negotiated autonomous province arrangements with the resistance groups in South Ossetia and Abkhazia instead of moving military in there. Of course, Georgia has offered large degree of autonomy before; but I still feel that military action was irresponsible considering Russian proximity and interest in these regions. My point is that no one will (or want to) take on Russia militarily, and they know that. Even if the rest of the world agrees that Russia is not right, retaliation will be limited to a few stern warnings from USA, NATO etc. When US went into war in Iraq with just a few countries backing it, US also knew that opposition would be just a few statements made by head of states, and that too will subside over time.
Well said. Apparently, you take a sober view of things. My respect.
Regards, Nikolay
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Your entire post reads like it was written by Adnan. You have got even the incoherence down pat.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Attacking ad hominen won't make you right, it only shows you have no real argument. Georgia attacks russian civilians. Russia counterattacks, and then we are supposed to protect Georgia. Tailban's Afghanistan did attack american civilians. USA counterattacked, are we supposed to protect Taliban's Afghanistan?
If you kill a whale, you get Greenpeace and Jacques Cousteau on your back, but wipe out sardines and you get a canning subsidy!
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Ka?l wrote:
why should we help Georgia, a country which deliberately chose to use force and shell civilians?
remember that. God only knows, no one would expect the French to help anyone.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
no one would expect the French to help anyone.
AFAIK more than 30,000 french troops are overseas: in Lebanon, in Afghanistan, in Bosnia, in Ivory coast and many other places. I know, it's hard for you to go over your racist prejudices, but I would suggest you to get a little more info before making such statements that could only lead one to consider you as an imbecile.
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
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Ka?l wrote:
Why should they be denied the right to self-determination?
They shouldn't. My point is that Putin used them as bait, but this doesn't make their wish less legitimate. However, as a side comment: is there anything more typically Caucasian, Middle Eastern and Balkan than "consider themselves as different people"? I mean in the western side of the world (the Americas) different people can get along very well. In the Balkans, Caucasus and Middle East they seem to be always on the verge of cutting their neighbors throat just because they have a different language, religion or ethnicity. I think the "Old World" of Europe, Caucasus, Central Asia and Middle East has a lot to learn from us in the "New World", from Canada to Argentina.
Of all forms of sexual aberration, the most unnatural is abstinence.
Diego Moita wrote:
I mean in the western side of the world (the Americas) different people can get along very well
Was there no nationalistic war ever in South America?
Diego Moita wrote:
I think the "Old World" of Europe, Caucasus, Central Asia and Middle East has a lot to learn from us in the "New World", from Canada to Argentina.
Exterminating local populations before creating new societies could be a solution, but it would be a little bit too radical.
Where do you expect us to go when the bombs fall? Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Ka?l wrote:
Why should they be denied the right to self-determination?
They shouldn't be. However that does not justify Russia's violation of the national sovereignty of Georgia, the destruction of its military and civilian infrastructure and the creation of ovr 100,000 Georgian refugees.
Ka?l wrote:
They consider themselves as different people, with a different culture, a different language
Any thoughts on when France will sign the Council of Europe's Framework Convention on National Minorities and allow the Germans in Alsace Lorraine self-determination - or at least the right to speak German in their homes?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
However that does not justify Russia's violation of the national sovereignty of Georgia, the destruction of its military and civilian infrastructure and the creation of ovr 100,000 Georgian refugees.
Then similarly the US were not justified to violate the national sovereignty of Aghanistan, the destruction of its military infrastructure and the creation of hundreds of thousands of Afghan refugees. Georgia attacked russian civilians and soldiers. Destroying the military infrastructure is logical, as did NATO when it confronted the Serbs in Bosnia or Kosovo, as did the international coalition when it striked Irak after it invaded Koweit.
Oakman wrote:
allow the Germans in Alsace Lorraine self-determination
Alsace has a germanic culture but Alsatians are no Germans. Lorraine is quite not germanic at all, on contrary people there (at least the older ones) still distrust Germany, only a very few minority still speak Frankish. Alsatians can speak their language at home, I've got a friend of mine from there whose mother doesn't even speak French. Alsace never asked for self-determination, so your example is not the good one. Anyway, want the Bretons, the Basque or the Corsicans to be independent, I'm all in favor for a referendum for self determination. I won't take a gun to force them to stay French, I won't shell the towns there, I won't bomb their women and children to oblige them to shut up.
If you kill a whale, you get Greenpeace and Jacques Cousteau on your back, but wipe out sardines and you get a canning subsidy!
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martin_hughes wrote:
He's also quite clearly insane.
I think not, and not only that, I think he is good for Russia. He is turned it around from being a corpse that western companies and the mafia crowed over as they georged themselves stupid. He stopped that. He has made it increasingly difficult for western companies to operate and taken back a lot that went into private hands after the collapse of comunism. The result is that Russia has no national debt, massive reserves, and a strong confident leader. His mistake is that he doesnt have to behave so ruthlessly at home and abroad since generally he had I would say fairly wide support in both. Suppport that is now fading.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
He is turned it around from being a corpse that western companies and the mafia crowed over as they georged themselves stupid. He stopped that
I'm not that sure when regarding Mafia. It seems on contrary that nowadays mafia and the State are deeply linked together. There were reports FSB men are used by private people to eliminate competition. The way also Putin put FSB pals at the head of Russia and most of its major companies seems like the actions of a Godfather.
Capitalism is the exploitation of man by man. Syndicalism is the opposite. Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Oakman wrote:
If I remember correctly, the majority of Iraqis greeted the US and UK as liberators.
Seems like your memory fails you. :)
Oakman wrote:
Have you seem lots of footage of Georgians greeting the Russians with open arms?
Are you kidding? Why should they greet Russians? Or did Serbian kids greet Americans for bombing Serbia? As far as Ossetian kids, yes, they are greeting Russians.
Regards, Nikolay
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
Seems like your memory fails you
Hey, speaking of memory - why is it when you claimed that Russia asked for UN intervention a whole day before she invaded, and I proved that she had started her transit of the Ural Mountains with tanks at roughly the same time as the Russian Ambassador arrived at the UN demanding a meeting of the security council at 11:00 p.m. you decided you had nothing else to say. As to what happened during the invasion of Iraq, you are either lying, stupid, or uneducated. Pick two.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
As far as Ossetian kids, yes, they are greeting Russians.
If I were Ossetian, I would, too. Unfortunately for the Georgian kids getting run over by tanks and the women being raped, the Russians are running riot in Georgia.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
Lets talk timeline
OK. The war between Serbia and NATO ended in 1999. As a result, Serbian forces were pulled-out of Kosovo and NATO peacekeepers entered that region. (I'm not asking you here whether on not NATO air-strike was authorised by the UN) The war between Georgions and Ossetians ended in 1992, Georgians were pulled-out and Russian peacekeepers entered South Ossetia region right after that. Now, imagine for a second, that a few hours ago Serbian forces invaded Kosovo trying to gain control of that region and already killed dozen of NATO peacekeepers along with hundreds of Kosovar civilians. So let me ask: how fast would react NATO in this case? Would it wait another thirteen months to start figthing Serbs?
Regards, Nikolay
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
I'm not asking you here whether on not NATO air-strike was authorised by the UN)
Of course it wasn't. The stupidest thing the US ever did was to grant Russia a permanent seat on the Security Council. It has meant that the UN has been a waste of time and money ever since. By the way, was the Russian invasion authorised by anyone?
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
The war between Serbia and NATO ended in 1999
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
The war between Georgions and Ossetians ended in 1992
Oh wait - not the war between the Russians and the Georgians? There was no previous war as there was with NATO?
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
how fast would react NATO in this case? Would it wait another thirteen months to start figthing Serbs?
I have no idea. I am pretty sure that they wouldn't run riot through all of Serbia killing kids, raping women, taking prisoners and deliberately destroying infrastructure.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Nikolay Denisov wrote:
Seems like your memory fails you
Hey, speaking of memory - why is it when you claimed that Russia asked for UN intervention a whole day before she invaded, and I proved that she had started her transit of the Ural Mountains with tanks at roughly the same time as the Russian Ambassador arrived at the UN demanding a meeting of the security council at 11:00 p.m. you decided you had nothing else to say. As to what happened during the invasion of Iraq, you are either lying, stupid, or uneducated. Pick two.
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
As far as Ossetian kids, yes, they are greeting Russians.
If I were Ossetian, I would, too. Unfortunately for the Georgian kids getting run over by tanks and the women being raped, the Russians are running riot in Georgia.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
you decided you had nothing else to say.
Open your eyes: here was my reply.[^]
Regards, Nikolay
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Oakman wrote:
However that does not justify Russia's violation of the national sovereignty of Georgia, the destruction of its military and civilian infrastructure and the creation of ovr 100,000 Georgian refugees.
Then similarly the US were not justified to violate the national sovereignty of Aghanistan, the destruction of its military infrastructure and the creation of hundreds of thousands of Afghan refugees. Georgia attacked russian civilians and soldiers. Destroying the military infrastructure is logical, as did NATO when it confronted the Serbs in Bosnia or Kosovo, as did the international coalition when it striked Irak after it invaded Koweit.
Oakman wrote:
allow the Germans in Alsace Lorraine self-determination
Alsace has a germanic culture but Alsatians are no Germans. Lorraine is quite not germanic at all, on contrary people there (at least the older ones) still distrust Germany, only a very few minority still speak Frankish. Alsatians can speak their language at home, I've got a friend of mine from there whose mother doesn't even speak French. Alsace never asked for self-determination, so your example is not the good one. Anyway, want the Bretons, the Basque or the Corsicans to be independent, I'm all in favor for a referendum for self determination. I won't take a gun to force them to stay French, I won't shell the towns there, I won't bomb their women and children to oblige them to shut up.
If you kill a whale, you get Greenpeace and Jacques Cousteau on your back, but wipe out sardines and you get a canning subsidy!
Ka?l wrote:
Then similarly the US were not justified to violate the national sovereignty of Aghanistan, the destruction of its military infrastructure and the creation of hundreds of thousands of Afghan refugees.
9/11. And weeks of warning the Taliban that either they turned Osama over or we were coming in to find him. I don't exactly recall the Georgian attack on Moscow. Do you? I don't exactly remember the weeks of warnings being delivered by Russia - DO YOU???
Ka?l wrote:
Alsace never asked for self-determination, so your example is not the good one.
Alsace Lorraine was an independent country before WWII and claimed by the French as war reparations afterward. The speaking of Frankish (a variant of German) is forbidden by law. The Germans in Alsace have wanted to reunite with Germany since the '50's.
Ka?l wrote:
I won't bomb their women and children to oblige them to shut up.
Maybe your Russian friends will do it for you.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Diego Moita wrote:
I mean in the western side of the world (the Americas) different people can get along very well
Was there no nationalistic war ever in South America?
Diego Moita wrote:
I think the "Old World" of Europe, Caucasus, Central Asia and Middle East has a lot to learn from us in the "New World", from Canada to Argentina.
Exterminating local populations before creating new societies could be a solution, but it would be a little bit too radical.
Where do you expect us to go when the bombs fall? Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Ka?l wrote:
Exterminating local populations before creating new societies could be a solution, but it would be a little bit too radical
Europe has a tradition of doing this that predates the Roman Empire. Only an idiot would think that the national boundaries or the ethnic distributions of Europe have remained the same for all time.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Nikolay Denisov wrote:
I'm not asking you here whether on not NATO air-strike was authorised by the UN)
Of course it wasn't. The stupidest thing the US ever did was to grant Russia a permanent seat on the Security Council. It has meant that the UN has been a waste of time and money ever since. By the way, was the Russian invasion authorised by anyone?
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
The war between Serbia and NATO ended in 1999
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
The war between Georgions and Ossetians ended in 1992
Oh wait - not the war between the Russians and the Georgians? There was no previous war as there was with NATO?
Nikolay Denisov wrote:
how fast would react NATO in this case? Would it wait another thirteen months to start figthing Serbs?
I have no idea. I am pretty sure that they wouldn't run riot through all of Serbia killing kids, raping women, taking prisoners and deliberately destroying infrastructure.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
The stupidest thing the US ever did was to grant Russia a permanent seat on the Security Council.
Was it the US who granted Russia a seat there? That's something new for me. LOL. :)
Oakman wrote:
Oh wait - not the war between the Russians and the Georgians? There was no previous war as there was with NATO?
There was no war between Russia and Georgia in 1992.
Oakman wrote:
killing kids, raping women, taking prisoners and deliberately destroying infrastructure.
Oh, those evil Russians! What a funny man you are!
Regards, Nikolay
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Ka?l wrote:
Then similarly the US were not justified to violate the national sovereignty of Aghanistan, the destruction of its military infrastructure and the creation of hundreds of thousands of Afghan refugees.
9/11. And weeks of warning the Taliban that either they turned Osama over or we were coming in to find him. I don't exactly recall the Georgian attack on Moscow. Do you? I don't exactly remember the weeks of warnings being delivered by Russia - DO YOU???
Ka?l wrote:
Alsace never asked for self-determination, so your example is not the good one.
Alsace Lorraine was an independent country before WWII and claimed by the French as war reparations afterward. The speaking of Frankish (a variant of German) is forbidden by law. The Germans in Alsace have wanted to reunite with Germany since the '50's.
Ka?l wrote:
I won't bomb their women and children to oblige them to shut up.
Maybe your Russian friends will do it for you.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
I don't exactly recall the Georgian attack on Moscow.
Not on Moskow, but on Russian citizens, and plenty of them.
Oakman wrote:
DO YOU???
Oakman wrote:
Alsace Lorraine was an independent country before WWII
:laugh::laugh::laugh: Ok, so let's go to the basics, History 101: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace-Loraine[^]
Oakman wrote:
The speaking of Frankish (a variant of German) is forbidden by law
No, it is not and never was. There's even a frankish festival organized in Sarreguemines each year (http://mirreddeplatt.sarreguemines.fr/[^]), festival co-sponsored by the French culture ministry.
Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first Fold with us! ¤ flickr