Georgia and The Stakes For Ukraine
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Interesting article (my opinion) by Victor Yushchenko, president of Ukraine. Key quote, from the end of the article: This weekend Ukraine celebrated the anniversary of its independence. This conflict has proved once again that the best means of ensuring the national security of Ukraine and other countries is to participate in the collective security system of free democratic nations, exemplified today by NATO. In accordance with national legislation and its foreign policy priorities, Ukraine will continue following the path of Euro-Atlantic integration. This is the path of democracy, freedom and independence. [^]
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Interesting article (my opinion) by Victor Yushchenko, president of Ukraine. Key quote, from the end of the article: This weekend Ukraine celebrated the anniversary of its independence. This conflict has proved once again that the best means of ensuring the national security of Ukraine and other countries is to participate in the collective security system of free democratic nations, exemplified today by NATO. In accordance with national legislation and its foreign policy priorities, Ukraine will continue following the path of Euro-Atlantic integration. This is the path of democracy, freedom and independence. [^]
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
This conflict has proved once again that the best means of ensuring the national security of Ukraine and other countries is to participate in the collective security system of free democratic nations, exemplified today by NATO.
I truly admire the guy's chutzpah. He is definitely bearding the lion in his den. However when a country whose oceanfront property is on the Black Sea starts talking about an Atlantic alliance, I smell a strong dose of "let's you and him fight." A mutual defense alliance means that two or more countries agree to go balls out in combat for each other. No ifs, no ands, no buts. At least in theory, if Georgia had been part of NATO two weeks ago, then Europe and the U.S. would've been in a shooting war with Russia. Now maybe Russia would've left Georgia alone rather than risk confrontation with NATO but that's not a given. Putin does not appear to be in hesitation mode. I'm sorry that Mr. Yushchenko found the United Nations and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe to be lacking (I would've, too) but that is no reason for NATO - whose big attraction for the Ukraine is, I believe, the armament of the U.S. - should be expected to stand in their stead. Nor is there any reason to add the Ukraine to NATO if, as I believe, neither Europe nor the US has any real intention of defending it if Russia invades. Sarkozy, Merkle, and Verhofstadt (Belgium) have all spoken glowingly of the creation of an EU military - this would be a great time for them to start. Then, if Western Europe wants to get involved in Eastern Europe's affairs, they can do so without help or hindrance from the U.S. Indeed, I think I would enjoy living in a country that could sit on the sidelines and armchair quarterback France's and Germany's involvement in a foreign war.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
This conflict has proved once again that the best means of ensuring the national security of Ukraine and other countries is to participate in the collective security system of free democratic nations, exemplified today by NATO.
I truly admire the guy's chutzpah. He is definitely bearding the lion in his den. However when a country whose oceanfront property is on the Black Sea starts talking about an Atlantic alliance, I smell a strong dose of "let's you and him fight." A mutual defense alliance means that two or more countries agree to go balls out in combat for each other. No ifs, no ands, no buts. At least in theory, if Georgia had been part of NATO two weeks ago, then Europe and the U.S. would've been in a shooting war with Russia. Now maybe Russia would've left Georgia alone rather than risk confrontation with NATO but that's not a given. Putin does not appear to be in hesitation mode. I'm sorry that Mr. Yushchenko found the United Nations and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe to be lacking (I would've, too) but that is no reason for NATO - whose big attraction for the Ukraine is, I believe, the armament of the U.S. - should be expected to stand in their stead. Nor is there any reason to add the Ukraine to NATO if, as I believe, neither Europe nor the US has any real intention of defending it if Russia invades. Sarkozy, Merkle, and Verhofstadt (Belgium) have all spoken glowingly of the creation of an EU military - this would be a great time for them to start. Then, if Western Europe wants to get involved in Eastern Europe's affairs, they can do so without help or hindrance from the U.S. Indeed, I think I would enjoy living in a country that could sit on the sidelines and armchair quarterback France's and Germany's involvement in a foreign war.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
I truly admire the guy's chutzpah.
ditto.
Oakman wrote:
However when a country whose oceanfront property is on the Black Sea starts talking about an Atlantic alliance, I smell a strong dose of "let's you and him fight."
Maybe, but I think the hypothesis falls short since Ukraine isn't a part of NATO and given the spinal flaccidity of same, this could work against his desire.
Oakman wrote:
I'm sorry that Mr. Yushchenko found the United Nations ... lacking
Hey, come on. The UN a a great get away for folks living in shitholes around the world.
Oakman wrote:
I think I would enjoy living in a country that could sit on the sidelines and armchair quarterback France's and Germany's involvement in a foreign war.
Maybe but I don't think we'd sit there too terribly long, but then who really knows?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Oakman wrote:
I truly admire the guy's chutzpah.
ditto.
Oakman wrote:
However when a country whose oceanfront property is on the Black Sea starts talking about an Atlantic alliance, I smell a strong dose of "let's you and him fight."
Maybe, but I think the hypothesis falls short since Ukraine isn't a part of NATO and given the spinal flaccidity of same, this could work against his desire.
Oakman wrote:
I'm sorry that Mr. Yushchenko found the United Nations ... lacking
Hey, come on. The UN a a great get away for folks living in shitholes around the world.
Oakman wrote:
I think I would enjoy living in a country that could sit on the sidelines and armchair quarterback France's and Germany's involvement in a foreign war.
Maybe but I don't think we'd sit there too terribly long, but then who really knows?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Interesting article (my opinion) by Victor Yushchenko, president of Ukraine. Key quote, from the end of the article: This weekend Ukraine celebrated the anniversary of its independence. This conflict has proved once again that the best means of ensuring the national security of Ukraine and other countries is to participate in the collective security system of free democratic nations, exemplified today by NATO. In accordance with national legislation and its foreign policy priorities, Ukraine will continue following the path of Euro-Atlantic integration. This is the path of democracy, freedom and independence. [^]
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
I doubt the eastern part of Ukraine, the Donbass for instance, would agree. Anyway, Ukraine is a democratic country so if it want to join the NATO and the NATO agrees, so let it be. And let die for Sevastopol as we died for Dantzig. Let not forget that all this shit began with the recognition of Kosovo... I still believe it was a huge mistake, it was the opening of pandora's box.
Capitalism is the exploitation of man by man. Syndicalism is the opposite. Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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I doubt the eastern part of Ukraine, the Donbass for instance, would agree. Anyway, Ukraine is a democratic country so if it want to join the NATO and the NATO agrees, so let it be. And let die for Sevastopol as we died for Dantzig. Let not forget that all this shit began with the recognition of Kosovo... I still believe it was a huge mistake, it was the opening of pandora's box.
Capitalism is the exploitation of man by man. Syndicalism is the opposite. Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Ka?l wrote:
Anyway, Ukraine is a democratic country so if it want to join the NATO and the NATO agrees, so let it be. And let die for Sevastopol as we died for Dantzig.
I think it's time you guys did the dying.
Ka?l wrote:
it was the opening of pandora's box.
But Clinton got to distract everyone from Monica's box.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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I doubt the eastern part of Ukraine, the Donbass for instance, would agree. Anyway, Ukraine is a democratic country so if it want to join the NATO and the NATO agrees, so let it be. And let die for Sevastopol as we died for Dantzig. Let not forget that all this shit began with the recognition of Kosovo... I still believe it was a huge mistake, it was the opening of pandora's box.
Capitalism is the exploitation of man by man. Syndicalism is the opposite. Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Another article that probably worth reading: On Ukraine, Mr Miliband should study carefully a range of reliable opinion polls showing that by a margin of about three to one, ordinary Ukrainian voters are opposed to Nato membership. This is not only because they want good relations with Russia, but because they fear being dragged into disastrous American wars in the Muslim world. Even when it comes to the wider question of alignment with the West rather than Russia, the Ukrainian majority in favour of the Western line is slim - about 53 to 47 per cent to judge by the last Ukrainian presidential election. We should have learnt by now from the ghastly examples of Bosnia and elsewhere that a narrow numerical majority is simply not enough when existential national issues are at stake. [^]
Regards, Nikolay
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Another article that probably worth reading: On Ukraine, Mr Miliband should study carefully a range of reliable opinion polls showing that by a margin of about three to one, ordinary Ukrainian voters are opposed to Nato membership. This is not only because they want good relations with Russia, but because they fear being dragged into disastrous American wars in the Muslim world. Even when it comes to the wider question of alignment with the West rather than Russia, the Ukrainian majority in favour of the Western line is slim - about 53 to 47 per cent to judge by the last Ukrainian presidential election. We should have learnt by now from the ghastly examples of Bosnia and elsewhere that a narrow numerical majority is simply not enough when existential national issues are at stake. [^]
Regards, Nikolay
I disagree with a point of this article, when it says:
'In other words, it is Nato's eastward drive, not Russian ambition, that is the greatest threat to Ukrainian stability and unity'
I don't think NATO's goal is to expand. It is not an imperialist organization, trying to get more and more territories. It's a defensive alliance, meant to give a protection to its members. Proof is, it is possible to quit the Alliance without risking being invaded by the other members - compared to the reaction of the Warsaw Pact when Czechoslovakia tried to get out of it in 1968
Military justice is to justice what military music is to music. Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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I disagree with a point of this article, when it says:
'In other words, it is Nato's eastward drive, not Russian ambition, that is the greatest threat to Ukrainian stability and unity'
I don't think NATO's goal is to expand. It is not an imperialist organization, trying to get more and more territories. It's a defensive alliance, meant to give a protection to its members. Proof is, it is possible to quit the Alliance without risking being invaded by the other members - compared to the reaction of the Warsaw Pact when Czechoslovakia tried to get out of it in 1968
Military justice is to justice what military music is to music. Fold with us! ¤ flickr
KaЯl wrote:
I don't think NATO's goal is to expand.
I think that used to be true. But it appears to me (and I think to the Russians) that NATO has decided to embrace and extend the alliance's purpose - as you pointed out suddenly it was in Kosevo. Now it is in Afghanistan - and expand its territory as well. It may indeed be important to Europe that at least one oil pipeline not come through Russian dominated territory, but France's oil supply is not really a reason to edge towards WWIII. It's good to know that Europe wouldn't declare war on the U.S. if we pulled out, though.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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KaЯl wrote:
I don't think NATO's goal is to expand.
I think that used to be true. But it appears to me (and I think to the Russians) that NATO has decided to embrace and extend the alliance's purpose - as you pointed out suddenly it was in Kosevo. Now it is in Afghanistan - and expand its territory as well. It may indeed be important to Europe that at least one oil pipeline not come through Russian dominated territory, but France's oil supply is not really a reason to edge towards WWIII. It's good to know that Europe wouldn't declare war on the U.S. if we pulled out, though.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Afghanistan's talibans attacked the US, so the US was entitled to ask the help of the other members of the alliance. For Kosovo, you are right, but IMHO the main culprit is Europe with its constant refusal to build an integrated defense force and the will of many states to rely on the US instead. When we got a problem there, 3/4 of the european countries cry for help rather than willing to deal with it. Something that won't change in the near future, on the contrary. The lawyer we have as president is betraying all the notions of French independence and plan to compete with UK to become the favorite poodle of the US. Adding to this his lack of strategic visions for the future and his disastrous influence on foreign policy, we cannot expect an improvement of the situation before 2012, the year of our next presidential election.
Military justice is to justice what military music is to music. Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Afghanistan's talibans attacked the US, so the US was entitled to ask the help of the other members of the alliance. For Kosovo, you are right, but IMHO the main culprit is Europe with its constant refusal to build an integrated defense force and the will of many states to rely on the US instead. When we got a problem there, 3/4 of the european countries cry for help rather than willing to deal with it. Something that won't change in the near future, on the contrary. The lawyer we have as president is betraying all the notions of French independence and plan to compete with UK to become the favorite poodle of the US. Adding to this his lack of strategic visions for the future and his disastrous influence on foreign policy, we cannot expect an improvement of the situation before 2012, the year of our next presidential election.
Military justice is to justice what military music is to music. Fold with us! ¤ flickr
KaЯl wrote:
IMHO the main culprit is Europe with its constant refusal to build an integrated defense force and the will of many states to rely on the US instead
We couldn't agree more on this point. Unfortunately building a true armed force of Europeans able to do more than just provide support to the US Armt wo0uld require spending money, whereas keeping NATO around means the US pays the lion's share of the costs of defending Europe, including millions of dollars in "rent" for the bases it operates from. It's my understanding that Sarkozy plans to cut the size of the French army by almost a third.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface