About the Palin daughter pregnacy [modified]
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was no secret.[^] Two points: re: the to be marriage - who is to say that they aren't in love and can make a go of it? low odds on success, admittedly (speaking from experience), but you can't generalize. re: Obama - now that the lefties are all in arms about the daughter, think they've paused to reflect on the fact that Obama is a bastard - his parents didn't marry.?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
modified on Monday, September 1, 2008 6:03 PM
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was no secret.[^] Two points: re: the to be marriage - who is to say that they aren't in love and can make a go of it? low odds on success, admittedly (speaking from experience), but you can't generalize. re: Obama - now that the lefties are all in arms about the daughter, think they've paused to reflect on the fact that Obama is a bastard - his parents didn't marry.?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
modified on Monday, September 1, 2008 6:03 PM
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Obama is a bastard - his parents didn't marry.?
Now that was dumb of him, not making his parents get married. ;P
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was no secret.[^] Two points: re: the to be marriage - who is to say that they aren't in love and can make a go of it? low odds on success, admittedly (speaking from experience), but you can't generalize. re: Obama - now that the lefties are all in arms about the daughter, think they've paused to reflect on the fact that Obama is a bastard - his parents didn't marry.?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
modified on Monday, September 1, 2008 6:03 PM
But it could wind up being one of those obscure double standards...
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Obama is a bastard - his parents didn't marry.?
Now that was dumb of him, not making his parents get married. ;P
Brady Kelly wrote:
Now that was dumb of him, not making his parents get married.
not at all. simply explains why he called off the dogs.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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But it could wind up being one of those obscure double standards...
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
Paul Conrad wrote:
But it could wind up being one of those obscure double standards..
Nothing too obscure about it. I never saw any reference to Obama's bastardy even by Fox News. (Not saying there wasn't one, just that I didn't see it.) But this little girl gets preggers and every reporter, every talking head and even Obama himself gets to chime in about it.
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was no secret.[^] Two points: re: the to be marriage - who is to say that they aren't in love and can make a go of it? low odds on success, admittedly (speaking from experience), but you can't generalize. re: Obama - now that the lefties are all in arms about the daughter, think they've paused to reflect on the fact that Obama is a bastard - his parents didn't marry.?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
modified on Monday, September 1, 2008 6:03 PM
Mike Gaskey wrote:
now that the lefties are all in arms about the daughter, think they've paused to reflect on the fact that Obama is a bastard - his parents didn't marry.?
Do you have an authoritative source? My understanding is that his mother was pregnant when they married, but they did marry. See here, for example. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1729524-3,00.html[^]
John Carson
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
now that the lefties are all in arms about the daughter, think they've paused to reflect on the fact that Obama is a bastard - his parents didn't marry.?
Do you have an authoritative source? My understanding is that his mother was pregnant when they married, but they did marry. See here, for example. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1729524-3,00.html[^]
John Carson
No-one has been able to find a marriage license - and people have looked. Apparently there is a birth certificate, but Obama won't release it. Since his father was already married, back in Kenya, the marriage, if it occurred, would not have been valid. http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=66787
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
now that the lefties are all in arms about the daughter, think they've paused to reflect on the fact that Obama is a bastard - his parents didn't marry.?
Do you have an authoritative source? My understanding is that his mother was pregnant when they married, but they did marry. See here, for example. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1729524-3,00.html[^]
John Carson
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Paul Conrad wrote:
But it could wind up being one of those obscure double standards..
Nothing too obscure about it. I never saw any reference to Obama's bastardy even by Fox News. (Not saying there wasn't one, just that I didn't see it.) But this little girl gets preggers and every reporter, every talking head and even Obama himself gets to chime in about it.
Shepman wrote:
never saw any reference to Obama's bastardy
Take a look at the link to Time magazine in the post by John Carson :|
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
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No-one has been able to find a marriage license - and people have looked. Apparently there is a birth certificate, but Obama won't release it. Since his father was already married, back in Kenya, the marriage, if it occurred, would not have been valid. http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=66787
http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/birthcert[^]
John Carson
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The article you link to says that Obama's father was already married when he was supposed to have married Obama's mother. Is that authoritative enough?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
The article you link to says that Obama's father was already married when he was supposed to have married Obama's mother. Is that authoritative enough?
Well, there is a difference between a) not going through a marriage ceremony and b) going through a marriage ceremony and discovering after the fact that there is a legal objection to it. The final outcome may be the same in terms of the existence of a legally valid marriage, but there are significant differences in other respects (for what it is worth, in Kenyan law it would presumably be accepted that it was a valid marriage). I don't have any reliable knowledge, by the way, of how the US legal system deals with people from cultures where polygamy is practiced. Apparently Obama's mother sought and obtained a divorce: she didn't just declare that no valid marriage ever took place.
John Carson
modified on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 3:01 AM
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Oakman wrote:
The article you link to says that Obama's father was already married when he was supposed to have married Obama's mother. Is that authoritative enough?
Well, there is a difference between a) not going through a marriage ceremony and b) going through a marriage ceremony and discovering after the fact that there is a legal objection to it. The final outcome may be the same in terms of the existence of a legally valid marriage, but there are significant differences in other respects (for what it is worth, in Kenyan law it would presumably be accepted that it was a valid marriage). I don't have any reliable knowledge, by the way, of how the US legal system deals with people from cultures where polygamy is practiced. Apparently Obama's mother sought and obtained a divorce: she didn't just declare that no valid marriage ever took place.
John Carson
modified on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 3:01 AM
John Carson wrote:
The final outcome may be the same in terms of the existence of a legally valid marriage, but there are significant differences in other respects (for what it is worth, in Kenyan law it would presumably be accepted that it was a valid marriage).
Obama's a bastard. Q.E.D. And all the hair-splitting, Clintonian it depends on what your definition of "is," is can't change that fact. It's no big deal - until someone like you (and I meant what I said about losing respect for you.) tries to throw slime over the daughter of someone he opposes politically because she chose to make a personal decision.
John Carson wrote:
I don't have any reliable knowledge, by the way, of how the US legal system deals with people from cultures where polygamy is practiced.
Not having reliable information about how things happen in the U.S. has never stopped you from speaking ex cathedra before. However in this case, the question doesn't come up. You do have reliable information that it is considered illegal to marry someone when you are already married in the U.S. Again. That point is made in the article you linked to as being reliable.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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John Carson wrote:
The final outcome may be the same in terms of the existence of a legally valid marriage, but there are significant differences in other respects (for what it is worth, in Kenyan law it would presumably be accepted that it was a valid marriage).
Obama's a bastard. Q.E.D. And all the hair-splitting, Clintonian it depends on what your definition of "is," is can't change that fact. It's no big deal - until someone like you (and I meant what I said about losing respect for you.) tries to throw slime over the daughter of someone he opposes politically because she chose to make a personal decision.
John Carson wrote:
I don't have any reliable knowledge, by the way, of how the US legal system deals with people from cultures where polygamy is practiced.
Not having reliable information about how things happen in the U.S. has never stopped you from speaking ex cathedra before. However in this case, the question doesn't come up. You do have reliable information that it is considered illegal to marry someone when you are already married in the U.S. Again. That point is made in the article you linked to as being reliable.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Obama's a bastard. Q.E.D. And all the hair-splitting, Clintonian it depends on what your definition of "is," is can't change that fact.
Calling someone an insulting name because of something his parents did before he was born is offensive. I mention this because you seem to be making a claim for the high moral ground, a claim that evidently cannot be sustained. Personally, I attach no moral significance to whether or not a couple is legally married at the time the woman gives birth. For those that do, however, presumably the morality has to do with the parents' intent. If Obama's mother believed that she was entering into a bona fide legal marriage, then any reasonable moralist would not blame her if, unknown to her, her husband was already married. The position regarding Obama's father is less clear. See below on this. Even supposing that he knew it was not a legal marriage in terms of American law, it seems plausible that, as a temporary US resident steeped in his own national culture, he was thinking in terms of Kenyan marriage laws, especially given that he apparently anticipated that they would be living in Kenya.
Oakman wrote:
It's no big deal - until someone like you (and I meant what I said about losing respect for you.) tries to throw slime over the daughter of someone he opposes politically because she chose to make a personal decision.
As I saw it, the issue over the rumour I posted was not the daughter. It was the mother or, more generally, the parents. If the rumour was true, then the parents (like countless parents before them in previous generations) were trying to hide a pregnancy for the sake of appearances. I didn't claim the rumour was true. However, I take pleasure when the foibles of the religious right are exposed and there seemed to be a chance that this would be such a case. So I mentioned the prospect. If this has caused a loss of respect from you, then so be it. The Republican right has used personal attacks as its basic political strategy for a couple of decades. I won't apologise for taking some pleasure in those occasions when their failures to live up to their own creed are exposed.
Oakman wrote:
Not having reliable information about how things happen in the U.S. has never stopped you from speaking ex cathedra before.
Actually, it stops me every day.
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Oakman wrote:
Obama's a bastard. Q.E.D. And all the hair-splitting, Clintonian it depends on what your definition of "is," is can't change that fact.
Calling someone an insulting name because of something his parents did before he was born is offensive. I mention this because you seem to be making a claim for the high moral ground, a claim that evidently cannot be sustained. Personally, I attach no moral significance to whether or not a couple is legally married at the time the woman gives birth. For those that do, however, presumably the morality has to do with the parents' intent. If Obama's mother believed that she was entering into a bona fide legal marriage, then any reasonable moralist would not blame her if, unknown to her, her husband was already married. The position regarding Obama's father is less clear. See below on this. Even supposing that he knew it was not a legal marriage in terms of American law, it seems plausible that, as a temporary US resident steeped in his own national culture, he was thinking in terms of Kenyan marriage laws, especially given that he apparently anticipated that they would be living in Kenya.
Oakman wrote:
It's no big deal - until someone like you (and I meant what I said about losing respect for you.) tries to throw slime over the daughter of someone he opposes politically because she chose to make a personal decision.
As I saw it, the issue over the rumour I posted was not the daughter. It was the mother or, more generally, the parents. If the rumour was true, then the parents (like countless parents before them in previous generations) were trying to hide a pregnancy for the sake of appearances. I didn't claim the rumour was true. However, I take pleasure when the foibles of the religious right are exposed and there seemed to be a chance that this would be such a case. So I mentioned the prospect. If this has caused a loss of respect from you, then so be it. The Republican right has used personal attacks as its basic political strategy for a couple of decades. I won't apologise for taking some pleasure in those occasions when their failures to live up to their own creed are exposed.
Oakman wrote:
Not having reliable information about how things happen in the U.S. has never stopped you from speaking ex cathedra before.
Actually, it stops me every day.
John Carson wrote:
Calling someone an insulting name because of something his parents did before he was born is offensive.
Bastard is not an insult per se. (Son of a Bitch, for instance, always is.) William the Bastard, Duke of Normandy was not being insulted, he was being identified as having a mother not married to his father. A bend sinister (a diagonal line across the shield, starting from the upper left) denotes bastardy as any heraldist will tell you. I note that you were the one who demanded proof of the assertion and received it. To complain that you don't like the technical terms which describe the particulars of the discussion is rather disingenuous. To switch the discussion to some sort of appraisal of the unknown intentions of Obama's mother and father in order to claim a moral high ground that exists only in your mind, is not worthy of further comment.
John Carson wrote:
If this has caused a loss of respect from you, then so be it. The Republican right has used personal attacks as its basic political strategy for a couple of decades.
If your choice is to be considered to have all the ethics and class of the Swift-boaters, then so be it, indeed. As I've said before, "They started it," is acceptable in children under the age of seven. When an adult uses it to justify his actions, he deserves to be laughed at and then told to go sit at the children's table.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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John Carson wrote:
Calling someone an insulting name because of something his parents did before he was born is offensive.
Bastard is not an insult per se. (Son of a Bitch, for instance, always is.) William the Bastard, Duke of Normandy was not being insulted, he was being identified as having a mother not married to his father. A bend sinister (a diagonal line across the shield, starting from the upper left) denotes bastardy as any heraldist will tell you. I note that you were the one who demanded proof of the assertion and received it. To complain that you don't like the technical terms which describe the particulars of the discussion is rather disingenuous. To switch the discussion to some sort of appraisal of the unknown intentions of Obama's mother and father in order to claim a moral high ground that exists only in your mind, is not worthy of further comment.
John Carson wrote:
If this has caused a loss of respect from you, then so be it. The Republican right has used personal attacks as its basic political strategy for a couple of decades.
If your choice is to be considered to have all the ethics and class of the Swift-boaters, then so be it, indeed. As I've said before, "They started it," is acceptable in children under the age of seven. When an adult uses it to justify his actions, he deserves to be laughed at and then told to go sit at the children's table.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Bastard is not an insult per se. (Son of a Bitch, for instance, always is.) William the Bastard, Duke of Normandy was not being insulted, he was being identified as having a mother not married to his father. A bend sinister (a diagonal line across the shield, starting from the upper left) denotes bastardy as any heraldist will tell you. I note that you were the one who demanded proof of the assertion and received it. To complain that you don't like the technical terms which describe the particulars of the discussion is rather disingenuous.
How ironic that you accuse me of being disingenuous. I am aware of the technical meaning of the term "bastard". I am also aware that the term is insulting. Find me an adoption agency that uses this term in its literature. Mike Gaskey and yourself deliberately used the term in order to be insulting. That is plain. I didn't complain when Gaskey used it because he is such an arsehole (yes, that was an insult) that I find it difficult to converse with him at all and I certainly wouldn't attempt the Herculean task of improving his language.
Oakman wrote:
To switch the discussion to some sort of appraisal of the unknown intentions of Obama's mother and father in order to claim a moral high ground that exists only in your mind, is not worthy of further comment.
I was not claiming any high moral ground. I was simply pointing out that there were more substantial issues involved than was suggested by your knee jerk Clintonian reference.
Oakman wrote:
If your choice is to be considered to have all the ethics and class of the Swift-boaters, then so be it, indeed.
Once again, if you are going to lay claim to the high moral ground, you need to pay more attention to your own behaviour. Dishonest misrepresentation is not a good look coming from someone who wishes to liken another's conduct to that of the Swift-boaters. I did not claim that the allegations about Palin were true and was certainly not the originator of any allegations. I merely drew attention to a rumour that was circulating widely. I make some modest effort to be abreast of widely circulating rumours, as I am sure you do too when in a less sanctimonious mode.
Oakman wrote:
As I've said before, "They started it," is acceptable in children under the age of seven. When an adult u
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Oakman wrote:
Bastard is not an insult per se. (Son of a Bitch, for instance, always is.) William the Bastard, Duke of Normandy was not being insulted, he was being identified as having a mother not married to his father. A bend sinister (a diagonal line across the shield, starting from the upper left) denotes bastardy as any heraldist will tell you. I note that you were the one who demanded proof of the assertion and received it. To complain that you don't like the technical terms which describe the particulars of the discussion is rather disingenuous.
How ironic that you accuse me of being disingenuous. I am aware of the technical meaning of the term "bastard". I am also aware that the term is insulting. Find me an adoption agency that uses this term in its literature. Mike Gaskey and yourself deliberately used the term in order to be insulting. That is plain. I didn't complain when Gaskey used it because he is such an arsehole (yes, that was an insult) that I find it difficult to converse with him at all and I certainly wouldn't attempt the Herculean task of improving his language.
Oakman wrote:
To switch the discussion to some sort of appraisal of the unknown intentions of Obama's mother and father in order to claim a moral high ground that exists only in your mind, is not worthy of further comment.
I was not claiming any high moral ground. I was simply pointing out that there were more substantial issues involved than was suggested by your knee jerk Clintonian reference.
Oakman wrote:
If your choice is to be considered to have all the ethics and class of the Swift-boaters, then so be it, indeed.
Once again, if you are going to lay claim to the high moral ground, you need to pay more attention to your own behaviour. Dishonest misrepresentation is not a good look coming from someone who wishes to liken another's conduct to that of the Swift-boaters. I did not claim that the allegations about Palin were true and was certainly not the originator of any allegations. I merely drew attention to a rumour that was circulating widely. I make some modest effort to be abreast of widely circulating rumours, as I am sure you do too when in a less sanctimonious mode.
Oakman wrote:
As I've said before, "They started it," is acceptable in children under the age of seven. When an adult u
John Carson wrote:
I am also aware that the term is insulting.
Not "is;" "can be," I'll grant you, but not "is." I used it for shock value, I admit, but only because I assumed you knew that it was a valid description. Like saying "fucking" instead of "sexual intercourse."
John Carson wrote:
your knee jerk Clintonian reference
You were splitting hairs. You might like to think you had "more substantial issues" in mind, but the concept that this subject - either Palin's grandchild or Obama's parents having any real reason to be discussed is, prima face, idiotic.
John Carson wrote:
I did not claim that the allegations about Palin were true and was certainly not the originator of any allegations.
Neither did/were most of the folks who swiftboated Kerry. They just "noted" the rumor in public. A smear is a smear is a smear.
John Carson wrote:
For my own trifling lack of manners, the justification more than suffices.
The children's table is over there. You can come back when you have learned how to behave like a grownup.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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John Carson wrote:
I am also aware that the term is insulting.
Not "is;" "can be," I'll grant you, but not "is." I used it for shock value, I admit, but only because I assumed you knew that it was a valid description. Like saying "fucking" instead of "sexual intercourse."
John Carson wrote:
your knee jerk Clintonian reference
You were splitting hairs. You might like to think you had "more substantial issues" in mind, but the concept that this subject - either Palin's grandchild or Obama's parents having any real reason to be discussed is, prima face, idiotic.
John Carson wrote:
I did not claim that the allegations about Palin were true and was certainly not the originator of any allegations.
Neither did/were most of the folks who swiftboated Kerry. They just "noted" the rumor in public. A smear is a smear is a smear.
John Carson wrote:
For my own trifling lack of manners, the justification more than suffices.
The children's table is over there. You can come back when you have learned how to behave like a grownup.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
You can come back when you have learned how to behave like a grownup.
Your condescension will certainly make me less inclined to engage with you in future.
John Carson
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Oakman wrote:
You can come back when you have learned how to behave like a grownup.
Your condescension will certainly make me less inclined to engage with you in future.
John Carson