Arrrgghhh - VB Programmers
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ME: Dude, why did you register a code-behind page that doesn't exist? APU: Uh... what? ME: Well, you put the "codebehind" attribute in the page directive and pointed it to a file that doesn't exist? APU: So? ME: It causes a compilation error. APU: A what? ME: A compilation error - and it's sloppy coding! APU: So what - it runs just fine... ME: But... oh never mind, I'll fix it.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
See my personal web site for photos, info, and a really weird blog
Want to fly model aircraft? Read my beginner site to find out how!std. reply: VB <> to blame! Bad programmers come in every language flavor! std. rejoinder: But given the choice, they use VB... :rolleyes:
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
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No, it's about the attitude that VB fosters... "if it works, what does it matter if it's wrong and could cause problems in the future" And he's not from our company.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
See my personal web site for photos, info, and a really weird blog
Want to fly model aircraft? Read my beginner site to find out how!I don't agree with that too much. There are bad programmers for all languages. The difference with early VB is that it was relatively easier for a novice to make something, when compared to a language such as C. With the change from VB6 to .NET, those problems are mostly resolved. The biggest change was Option Explicit is now On by default, instead of Off. Unless your arrrrrgggghhh stems from International Talk Like a Pirate Day and I missed the point... ;P
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No, it's about the attitude that VB fosters... "if it works, what does it matter if it's wrong and could cause problems in the future" And he's not from our company.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
See my personal web site for photos, info, and a really weird blog
Want to fly model aircraft? Read my beginner site to find out how!Jasmine2501 wrote:
No, it's about the attitude that VB fosters.
Bullshit. I have known VB programmers - Rocky Lhotka for example - who are superb programmers. Deborah Kurata - who was doing full-fledged objects with VB6 - these guys write tight, maintainable, elegant code and to claim that because they do it in VB rather than the only language you are comfortable in, it somehow is less impressive than it would be if you did it, demonstrates your myopia and arrogance, not their lack of skill. I'm pretty fluent in both C# and VB.Net and my standards don't change depending on which language I program in. I find the concept ludicrous.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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std. reply: VB <> to blame! Bad programmers come in every language flavor! std. rejoinder: But given the choice, they use VB... :rolleyes:
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
Shog9 wrote:
std. reply: VB <> to blame! Bad programmers come in every language flavor! std. rejoinder: But given the choice, they use VB...
std. whine: I get confused by VB so it must be bad. std. rejoinder: Quit bitchin' and learn what you don't know.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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I don't agree with that too much. There are bad programmers for all languages. The difference with early VB is that it was relatively easier for a novice to make something, when compared to a language such as C. With the change from VB6 to .NET, those problems are mostly resolved. The biggest change was Option Explicit is now On by default, instead of Off. Unless your arrrrrgggghhh stems from International Talk Like a Pirate Day and I missed the point... ;P
The JZ wrote:
The difference with early VB is that it was relatively easier for a novice to make something, when compared to a language such as C.
Another difference was that VB created a message box with one line of code. C required three days work by a skilled programmer.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Shog9 wrote:
std. reply: VB <> to blame! Bad programmers come in every language flavor! std. rejoinder: But given the choice, they use VB...
std. whine: I get confused by VB so it must be bad. std. rejoinder: Quit bitchin' and learn what you don't know.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
I get confused by VB so it must be bad.
I get confused by VB programmers, not VB. I don't like VB, but i'm not really wild about C++ either, and yet i do most of my programming in one or the other. There was a time, many years ago now, when i would occasionally even choose to use VB for new projects if they were COM or UI heavy... this was before exposure to VB Programmers left my brain scarred, my eyes forever associating the syntax with pain. If it makes you feel any better, we specified C# for our last big outsourced project, and the coders involved applied their years combined year of VB experience to the task... i won't comment on the quality, other than to say you can expect that before too long we'll be referring to C# programmers in the same sort of terms we previously reserved for those of the VB persuasion.
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
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Jasmine2501 wrote:
No, it's about the attitude that VB fosters.
Bullshit. I have known VB programmers - Rocky Lhotka for example - who are superb programmers. Deborah Kurata - who was doing full-fledged objects with VB6 - these guys write tight, maintainable, elegant code and to claim that because they do it in VB rather than the only language you are comfortable in, it somehow is less impressive than it would be if you did it, demonstrates your myopia and arrogance, not their lack of skill. I'm pretty fluent in both C# and VB.Net and my standards don't change depending on which language I program in. I find the concept ludicrous.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Aaaargh - the pain - I AGREE with Oakman! I feel so dirty lol - have a 5
C# has already designed away most of the tedium of C++.
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Jasmine2501 wrote:
No, it's about the attitude that VB fosters.
Bullshit. I have known VB programmers - Rocky Lhotka for example - who are superb programmers. Deborah Kurata - who was doing full-fledged objects with VB6 - these guys write tight, maintainable, elegant code and to claim that because they do it in VB rather than the only language you are comfortable in, it somehow is less impressive than it would be if you did it, demonstrates your myopia and arrogance, not their lack of skill. I'm pretty fluent in both C# and VB.Net and my standards don't change depending on which language I program in. I find the concept ludicrous.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
I am pretty fluent in VB and C# and several other languages as well. I have been doing this stuff for 25 years. In my experience, which is possibly different from yours, people who cut their teeth in VB and have never used anything else tend to be lazy programmers more often than not. The existence of good VB programmers doesn't change my experience, and I'm well aware of them. I'm just frustrated with the guys I'm working with right now. And yeah we're kinda doing the Pirate thing here today.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
See my personal web site for photos, info, and a really weird blog
Want to fly model aircraft? Read my beginner site to find out how! -
I am pretty fluent in VB and C# and several other languages as well. I have been doing this stuff for 25 years. In my experience, which is possibly different from yours, people who cut their teeth in VB and have never used anything else tend to be lazy programmers more often than not. The existence of good VB programmers doesn't change my experience, and I'm well aware of them. I'm just frustrated with the guys I'm working with right now. And yeah we're kinda doing the Pirate thing here today.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
See my personal web site for photos, info, and a really weird blog
Want to fly model aircraft? Read my beginner site to find out how!Jasmine2501 wrote:
people who cut their teeth in VB and have never used anything else tend to be lazy programmers more often than not.
To be fair, you can take that statement, replace VB with [any other language], and it still rings true.
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
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Oakman wrote:
I get confused by VB so it must be bad.
I get confused by VB programmers, not VB. I don't like VB, but i'm not really wild about C++ either, and yet i do most of my programming in one or the other. There was a time, many years ago now, when i would occasionally even choose to use VB for new projects if they were COM or UI heavy... this was before exposure to VB Programmers left my brain scarred, my eyes forever associating the syntax with pain. If it makes you feel any better, we specified C# for our last big outsourced project, and the coders involved applied their years combined year of VB experience to the task... i won't comment on the quality, other than to say you can expect that before too long we'll be referring to C# programmers in the same sort of terms we previously reserved for those of the VB persuasion.
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
There's no doubt that C and C++ provide tighter control, require more discipline, and allow for fewer mind-boggles than VB or C#. The tradeoff is, of course, speed. It can be argued that slow and steady wins the race and in some cases that's true - but a lot of business software has a lifecycle of less than three years and can't afford to spend half of that being coded. If what you do gives you the luxury of doing right the first time, I am glad for you. Nor will I deny that a large number of prior-to-2001 VB programmers were, in actuality, Access VBA programmers fumbling around in a UI they thought they recognized. Those are the guys who whimpered for "classic VB" and didn't or almost didn't make the transition to .NET. If you ended up with some of them on your payroll, I sympathise. However, the concept that all VB programmers are sloppy coders or all black men have big -- noses, or all Chinese are intellectual property thiefs or all Southerners have IQs of less than 100, or all C++ programmers think as slowly as they code is just plain false.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Aaaargh - the pain - I AGREE with Oakman! I feel so dirty lol - have a 5
C# has already designed away most of the tedium of C++.
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Oakman wrote:
I get confused by VB so it must be bad.
I get confused by VB programmers, not VB. I don't like VB, but i'm not really wild about C++ either, and yet i do most of my programming in one or the other. There was a time, many years ago now, when i would occasionally even choose to use VB for new projects if they were COM or UI heavy... this was before exposure to VB Programmers left my brain scarred, my eyes forever associating the syntax with pain. If it makes you feel any better, we specified C# for our last big outsourced project, and the coders involved applied their years combined year of VB experience to the task... i won't comment on the quality, other than to say you can expect that before too long we'll be referring to C# programmers in the same sort of terms we previously reserved for those of the VB persuasion.
----
You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
Shog9 wrote:
other than to say you can expect that before too long we'll be referring to C# programmers in the same sort of terms we previously reserved for those of the VB persuasion.
Yeah I'm not happy about the dumbing-down of tools - but there is an up side to it... things get done faster. I wonder how long it will be before we're in a "Space Cowboys" situation, where there's only a few people left in the world who really know how the system works, and when the base stuff starts failing, we'll be hosed. I noticed the other day that my Vista machine seems to be still starting up from a DOS shell??? Have we really not thought of a better way to bootstrap an OS since 1981? I know Apple has solved this issue...
"Quality Software since 1983!"
See my personal web site for photos, info, and a really weird blog
Want to fly model aircraft? Read my beginner site to find out how! -
There's no doubt that C and C++ provide tighter control, require more discipline, and allow for fewer mind-boggles than VB or C#. The tradeoff is, of course, speed. It can be argued that slow and steady wins the race and in some cases that's true - but a lot of business software has a lifecycle of less than three years and can't afford to spend half of that being coded. If what you do gives you the luxury of doing right the first time, I am glad for you. Nor will I deny that a large number of prior-to-2001 VB programmers were, in actuality, Access VBA programmers fumbling around in a UI they thought they recognized. Those are the guys who whimpered for "classic VB" and didn't or almost didn't make the transition to .NET. If you ended up with some of them on your payroll, I sympathise. However, the concept that all VB programmers are sloppy coders or all black men have big -- noses, or all Chinese are intellectual property thiefs or all Southerners have IQs of less than 100, or all C++ programmers think as slowly as they code is just plain false.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
However, the concept that all VB programmers are sloppy coders or all black men have big -- noses, or all Chinese are intellectual property thiefs or all Southerners have IQs of less than 100, or all C++ programmers think as slowly as they code is just plain false.
Absolutely, and i wouldn't think of considering you an intellectually-lazy, ham-fisted programmer simply because you've admitted to using VB. OTOH, i'll likely never have to work with your code, so adding your traits to my mental database of "VB Programmers" isn't particularly useful. To date, the only VB programmer i've met face to face who i wouldn't consider borderline incompetent is the guy who taught me the language... and i never actually worked with him either. To put it in Soapbox terms... i've met more peaceful muslims than careful VB Programmers. :rolleyes:
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
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I am pretty fluent in VB and C# and several other languages as well. I have been doing this stuff for 25 years. In my experience, which is possibly different from yours, people who cut their teeth in VB and have never used anything else tend to be lazy programmers more often than not. The existence of good VB programmers doesn't change my experience, and I'm well aware of them. I'm just frustrated with the guys I'm working with right now. And yeah we're kinda doing the Pirate thing here today.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
See my personal web site for photos, info, and a really weird blog
Want to fly model aircraft? Read my beginner site to find out how!Jasmine2501 wrote:
I have been doing this stuff for 25 years
Got me beat. I started in '84
Jasmine2501 wrote:
I'm just frustrated with the guys I'm working with right now.
My last contract job, I worked with a C# team that wrote all their code as if their web app and their SQL 2000 were running locally on each user's desktop. While I was there, they discovered MS's AJAX and were positive it totally eliminated any need for writing javascript. I feel your pain.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Shog9 wrote:
other than to say you can expect that before too long we'll be referring to C# programmers in the same sort of terms we previously reserved for those of the VB persuasion.
Yeah I'm not happy about the dumbing-down of tools - but there is an up side to it... things get done faster. I wonder how long it will be before we're in a "Space Cowboys" situation, where there's only a few people left in the world who really know how the system works, and when the base stuff starts failing, we'll be hosed. I noticed the other day that my Vista machine seems to be still starting up from a DOS shell??? Have we really not thought of a better way to bootstrap an OS since 1981? I know Apple has solved this issue...
"Quality Software since 1983!"
See my personal web site for photos, info, and a really weird blog
Want to fly model aircraft? Read my beginner site to find out how!Jasmine2501 wrote:
I know Apple has solved this issue
But Apple is already in a Space Cowboys world. Partially because they keep rewriting the OS from scratch. Now that they are jumping to Intel chips how many developers are going to want to follow?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
However, the concept that all VB programmers are sloppy coders or all black men have big -- noses, or all Chinese are intellectual property thiefs or all Southerners have IQs of less than 100, or all C++ programmers think as slowly as they code is just plain false.
Absolutely, and i wouldn't think of considering you an intellectually-lazy, ham-fisted programmer simply because you've admitted to using VB. OTOH, i'll likely never have to work with your code, so adding your traits to my mental database of "VB Programmers" isn't particularly useful. To date, the only VB programmer i've met face to face who i wouldn't consider borderline incompetent is the guy who taught me the language... and i never actually worked with him either. To put it in Soapbox terms... i've met more peaceful muslims than careful VB Programmers. :rolleyes:
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
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Well, all VB programmers have big -- noses. All C++ programmers have is pocket protectors. ;P
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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:-D Yes, with... pens... this big, our pockets certainly need protecting. :rolleyes:
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You're right. These facts that you've laid out totally contradict the wild ramblings that I pulled off the back of cornflakes packets.
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Jasmine2501 wrote:
APU: So what - it runs just fine...
You are saying he never saw "File 'pagename.aspx.vb' was not found"? If so, it has nothing to do with VB and everything to do with the quality of your company's tech interviews.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
You seem to know an awful lot about VB there, chief.... :suss:
...that mortally intolerable truth; that all deep, earnest thinking is but the intrepid effort of the soul to keep the open independence of her sea; while the wildest winds of heaven and earth conspire to cast her on the treacherous, slavish shore.
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Jasmine2501 wrote:
No, it's about the attitude that VB fosters.
Bullshit. I have known VB programmers - Rocky Lhotka for example - who are superb programmers. Deborah Kurata - who was doing full-fledged objects with VB6 - these guys write tight, maintainable, elegant code and to claim that because they do it in VB rather than the only language you are comfortable in, it somehow is less impressive than it would be if you did it, demonstrates your myopia and arrogance, not their lack of skill. I'm pretty fluent in both C# and VB.Net and my standards don't change depending on which language I program in. I find the concept ludicrous.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
pretty fluent in both C# and VB.Net and my standards don't change depending on which language I program in
Same here, excellent point. It really is not the language, but the person programming in the language. I've seen good and bad VB/VB.NET, as well as the same for C/C++/C# and Java. I try to stay out of language wars because they are rather pointless.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham