Castle Doctrine
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Dan Neely brought up[^] the subject of Castle Doctrine[^] in the Lounge. First of all I thought it was like that in the entire United States, nevermind. :) I must say I always envy you that law which lets you kill offenders who enter your home. Here, in Poland, there's a big chance you could go to jail for killing a burglar or even a murderer. You have to defend yourself with an "equal" means, so if you shoot 'em with your rifle and they just had a knife... You know, you just overdid this. I find it ridiculous at least and can't understand why a person should not be allowed to use the best weapon he has at hand. :| But I also think there are two sides of the medal. How does your "Make My Day Law" work in such hypothetical situations: - a friend comes to my house, we argue and I kill him/her. I tell the police that he/she entered my house and threatened me. This would be tricky as there would be probably many witnesses to confirm that we were friends, but still - sometimes your best friend is a murderer, right? - I kidnap a person and hold them captive in my own house, beat them to death and claim that I was being robbed by the very person I murdered ?
In all cases, if you kill someone, there has to be incontrovertible evidence that you were defending against a violent trespasser. you could not use that defense in either of the examples you gave, since you could not prove they entered without your permission and that you were defending yourself or your property. For the Castle Doctrine to hold up, there has to be sufficient evidence that the castle was violated...The article you linked to seemed pretty clear on this.
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In all cases, if you kill someone, there has to be incontrovertible evidence that you were defending against a violent trespasser. you could not use that defense in either of the examples you gave, since you could not prove they entered without your permission and that you were defending yourself or your property. For the Castle Doctrine to hold up, there has to be sufficient evidence that the castle was violated...The article you linked to seemed pretty clear on this.
But if I prepared some "evidence"... Like a broken window, a fight scene (crashed furniture, etc.). I think there's room for abuse.
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But if I prepared some "evidence"... Like a broken window, a fight scene (crashed furniture, etc.). I think there's room for abuse.
I've never heard a single case of it being abused, and given how politicized gun politics in the US are, if it had happened I'm sure certain parties would be shouting it from the rooftops.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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Dan Neely brought up[^] the subject of Castle Doctrine[^] in the Lounge. First of all I thought it was like that in the entire United States, nevermind. :) I must say I always envy you that law which lets you kill offenders who enter your home. Here, in Poland, there's a big chance you could go to jail for killing a burglar or even a murderer. You have to defend yourself with an "equal" means, so if you shoot 'em with your rifle and they just had a knife... You know, you just overdid this. I find it ridiculous at least and can't understand why a person should not be allowed to use the best weapon he has at hand. :| But I also think there are two sides of the medal. How does your "Make My Day Law" work in such hypothetical situations: - a friend comes to my house, we argue and I kill him/her. I tell the police that he/she entered my house and threatened me. This would be tricky as there would be probably many witnesses to confirm that we were friends, but still - sometimes your best friend is a murderer, right? - I kidnap a person and hold them captive in my own house, beat them to death and claim that I was being robbed by the very person I murdered ?
Pawel Krakowiak wrote:
- I kidnap a person and hold them captive in my own house, beat them to death and claim that I was being robbed by the very person I murdered
The kidnapping clearly makes this one felony murder.* * If anyone dies during the committing of a felony, everyone involved in any part of the crime is charged with murder as well. It doesn't matter if the perps killed the deceased directly, scared them into a heart attack, or if one of the perps was killed by an intended victim or the police, if the perps were split up and not all were present when the death occurred, etc; all the surviving perps are looking at murder on top of everything else.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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But if I prepared some "evidence"... Like a broken window, a fight scene (crashed furniture, etc.). I think there's room for abuse.
The maint thing that would be cheacked would be any and all evidence supporting your claim of Castle Doctrine, and that with a jaundiced eye... Not a single reported case of successful abuse, and practically no reports of attempted abuse.
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The maint thing that would be cheacked would be any and all evidence supporting your claim of Castle Doctrine, and that with a jaundiced eye... Not a single reported case of successful abuse, and practically no reports of attempted abuse.
The Castle Doctrine is an excellent defense for when police execute an "no-knock" warrant and the homeowner shoots a cop to death. It's about time citizens had the right to protect themselves and their homes.
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But if I prepared some "evidence"... Like a broken window, a fight scene (crashed furniture, etc.). I think there's room for abuse.
I had a police officer tell me once---" If an unarmed criminal enters your home shoot him and then make sure you put a knife in his hand and you'll be ok." :)
My Blog: http://cynicalclots.blogspot.com
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I had a police officer tell me once---" If an unarmed criminal enters your home shoot him and then make sure you put a knife in his hand and you'll be ok." :)
My Blog: http://cynicalclots.blogspot.com
Dirk Higbee wrote:
I had a police officer tell me once---" If an unarmed criminal enters your home shoot him and then make sure you put a knife in his hand and you'll be ok."
You skipped over the middle step which must be accomplished before putting a knife in his hand. - make sure he's dead. ;)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Dirk Higbee wrote:
I had a police officer tell me once---" If an unarmed criminal enters your home shoot him and then make sure you put a knife in his hand and you'll be ok."
You skipped over the middle step which must be accomplished before putting a knife in his hand. - make sure he's dead. ;)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
That would help a lot. :-D
My Blog: http://cynicalclots.blogspot.com
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The Castle Doctrine is an excellent defense for when police execute an "no-knock" warrant and the homeowner shoots a cop to death. It's about time citizens had the right to protect themselves and their homes.
I'd like to think so, unfortunately the only person I know of where someone shot back to a no knock warrant delivered to the wrong address and survived was convicted and IIRC is on death row. X| Prosecutors were helped in this travesty by their victim having a prior felony record.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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Pawel Krakowiak wrote:
- I kidnap a person and hold them captive in my own house, beat them to death and claim that I was being robbed by the very person I murdered
The kidnapping clearly makes this one felony murder.* * If anyone dies during the committing of a felony, everyone involved in any part of the crime is charged with murder as well. It doesn't matter if the perps killed the deceased directly, scared them into a heart attack, or if one of the perps was killed by an intended victim or the police, if the perps were split up and not all were present when the death occurred, etc; all the surviving perps are looking at murder on top of everything else.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
dan neely wrote:
The kidnapping clearly makes this one felony murder.
Yes, although what I am thinking of is kidnapping and murdering a person so that no one knows I actually kidnapped them, then calling the police myself and telling them I just killed a burglar at my own house under the Castle Doctrine. With some false evidence at the place and so on. Excuse me for my weak attempts :P, I am just looking for possible ways of abusing such law as you have.
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Dan Neely brought up[^] the subject of Castle Doctrine[^] in the Lounge. First of all I thought it was like that in the entire United States, nevermind. :) I must say I always envy you that law which lets you kill offenders who enter your home. Here, in Poland, there's a big chance you could go to jail for killing a burglar or even a murderer. You have to defend yourself with an "equal" means, so if you shoot 'em with your rifle and they just had a knife... You know, you just overdid this. I find it ridiculous at least and can't understand why a person should not be allowed to use the best weapon he has at hand. :| But I also think there are two sides of the medal. How does your "Make My Day Law" work in such hypothetical situations: - a friend comes to my house, we argue and I kill him/her. I tell the police that he/she entered my house and threatened me. This would be tricky as there would be probably many witnesses to confirm that we were friends, but still - sometimes your best friend is a murderer, right? - I kidnap a person and hold them captive in my own house, beat them to death and claim that I was being robbed by the very person I murdered ?
A girl I knew throughout grade school became an addict soon after high school. A few years ago she was found shot dead on the sidewalk in a bad area. Turns out she was high and went to a "friends" house to crash. Instead of knocking she was attempting to force open the door. Fearing an intruder, the "friend" fired a pistol through the closed door. When the forced entry stopped (because she'd been shot) the "friend" went back to sleep. He was charged with manslaughter. Tried to use the castle doctrine as a defense but failed because the "intruder" never really entered his house.
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dan neely wrote:
The kidnapping clearly makes this one felony murder.
Yes, although what I am thinking of is kidnapping and murdering a person so that no one knows I actually kidnapped them, then calling the police myself and telling them I just killed a burglar at my own house under the Castle Doctrine. With some false evidence at the place and so on. Excuse me for my weak attempts :P, I am just looking for possible ways of abusing such law as you have.
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A girl I knew throughout grade school became an addict soon after high school. A few years ago she was found shot dead on the sidewalk in a bad area. Turns out she was high and went to a "friends" house to crash. Instead of knocking she was attempting to force open the door. Fearing an intruder, the "friend" fired a pistol through the closed door. When the forced entry stopped (because she'd been shot) the "friend" went back to sleep. He was charged with manslaughter. Tried to use the castle doctrine as a defense but failed because the "intruder" never really entered his house.
This is slightly ambiguous. Are we to assume he was convicted and not gotten off for some other reason?
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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This is slightly ambiguous. Are we to assume he was convicted and not gotten off for some other reason?
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
dan neely wrote:
Are we to assume he was convicted and not gotten off for some other reason?
He was convicted. AFAIK the "Castle Doctrine" defense was not valid (in the state of Illinois) due to the fact that the intruder never actually entered his house. In this case, both parties were wrong. She never should have tried to enter his house and he never should have fired a weapon through a door when he really had no idea who/what was on the other side.
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dan neely wrote:
Are we to assume he was convicted and not gotten off for some other reason?
He was convicted. AFAIK the "Castle Doctrine" defense was not valid (in the state of Illinois) due to the fact that the intruder never actually entered his house. In this case, both parties were wrong. She never should have tried to enter his house and he never should have fired a weapon through a door when he really had no idea who/what was on the other side.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
he never should have fired a weapon through a door when he really had no idea who/what was on the other side.
Words to live by. A couple of hungry dobermans in the front yard on the other hand. . .
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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dan neely wrote:
Are we to assume he was convicted and not gotten off for some other reason?
He was convicted. AFAIK the "Castle Doctrine" defense was not valid (in the state of Illinois) due to the fact that the intruder never actually entered his house. In this case, both parties were wrong. She never should have tried to enter his house and he never should have fired a weapon through a door when he really had no idea who/what was on the other side.
IL's version of the law is watered down, from the WP aticle "Use of deadly force is justified if defending a home from "tumultuous" entry; duty to retreat not specifically removed"; which I take it means forced entry only. Frankly I'm more amazed that they have any form of it at all. Out of curiosity was the trial held in greater chicago, or the rural part of the state?
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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IL's version of the law is watered down, from the WP aticle "Use of deadly force is justified if defending a home from "tumultuous" entry; duty to retreat not specifically removed"; which I take it means forced entry only. Frankly I'm more amazed that they have any form of it at all. Out of curiosity was the trial held in greater chicago, or the rural part of the state?
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
he never should have fired a weapon through a door when he really had no idea who/what was on the other side.
Words to live by. A couple of hungry dobermans in the front yard on the other hand. . .
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
A couple of hungry dobermans in the front yard on the other hand. .
Until recently I had a 70 pounder sleeping in the hallway. She was loud, grumpy, old and, really doted over my son. Man, do we ever miss her.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
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Oakman wrote:
A couple of hungry dobermans in the front yard on the other hand. .
Until recently I had a 70 pounder sleeping in the hallway. She was loud, grumpy, old and, really doted over my son. Man, do we ever miss her.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
Chris Austin wrote:
Until recently I had a 70 pounder sleeping in the hallway. She was loud, grumpy, old and, really doted over my son. Man, do we ever miss her.
Pets were put on earth to teach us what uncoditional love was all about. My true sympathies for your loss. Give this to your son: Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge. When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge. There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together. There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable. All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor. Those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by. The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind. They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent. His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster. You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart. Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together…
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface