Ginkgo Biloba
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Would you be willing to take ginkgo for the purposes of preventing stroke based on this study? In terms of clouding the issue, I thought the issue was precisely that question. Am I mistaken?
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Fisticuffs wrote:
In terms of clouding the issue, I thought the issue was precisely that question. Am I mistaken?
The issue at hand is that you decided to call the OP's link a fraud without bothering to read it.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Fisticuffs wrote:
I'm perfectly willing to take their findings at face value - I have no reason to doubt the study.
You mean now that you have decided to read about it.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
You seem determined to be provocative. Nevertheless, Jon, you're out of your league here. Are you upset because I didn't write "AND I READ IT AND THIS IS A MOUSE STUDY" in my original post? Because that seems to be your only line of discussion - whether or not I have basic reading comprehension :rolleyes:. If you had any training in epidemiology, you would know that mouse studies do not translate well to humans. Obviously, the physiology is quite different. Regarding this study, existing studies on humans deny exactly the specific effect they found in the mice. The clinical benefit from this, in my opinion, is dubious. Got any more one-liners you would like to share? It's always fun to see you forget your calls for a higher level of discourse in the Soapbox as soon as you have nothing of value to add.
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Fisticuffs wrote:
In terms of clouding the issue, I thought the issue was precisely that question. Am I mistaken?
The issue at hand is that you decided to call the OP's link a fraud without bothering to read it.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Fisticuffs wrote: Medline, uptodate.org, and my cma.ca subscription And which one of them told you the "Stroke" article was a fraud?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Fisticuffs wrote:
I would comment that it's difficult to get an idea of what should/shouldn't be done medically from only reading the primary literature.
So it's much better not to read the articles, just declare them to be frauds, right?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Fisticuffs wrote:
Yes I am, when in an appropriate professional setting and under the proper supervision for my level of training.
Junior med tech? Ambulance Driver? You obviously are unwilling to reveal your professional credentials so tell me, has you level of training included the suggestion that you read a medical article before trashing it?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
B.Sc biochemistry/MD in progress. And yes, my training suggests I should place very little weight on animal studies when making clinical decisions like, "should I take ginkgo to prevent a stroke." [edit: though, I'll point out that this is exactly the extrapolation that journalists make to spin their articles and researchers hint at to spin their studies, for obvious reasons] Are we done, or are you still interested in trying to score points off me?
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It's obvious you didn't read it, but now that you're lying to cover it up. I won't belabor the point.
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Angry? At you? Why would I be. Are you trying to make me angry? Trust me. You wouldn't like me when I am angry. :rolleyes:
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B.Sc biochemistry/MD in progress. And yes, my training suggests I should place very little weight on animal studies when making clinical decisions like, "should I take ginkgo to prevent a stroke." [edit: though, I'll point out that this is exactly the extrapolation that journalists make to spin their articles and researchers hint at to spin their studies, for obvious reasons] Are we done, or are you still interested in trying to score points off me?
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Fisticuffs wrote:
B.Sc biochemistry/MD in progress.
Oh God. I have been arguing with a first year med student. :-O What a waste.
Fisticuffs wrote:
are you still interested in trying to score points off me?
In the league I play in, I not only would not be able to count points off of you, you aren't even qualified to sweep up the locker room. Effective immediately you go onto Diego's shit-list script
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Fisticuffs wrote:
B.Sc biochemistry/MD in progress.
Oh God. I have been arguing with a first year med student. :-O What a waste.
Fisticuffs wrote:
are you still interested in trying to score points off me?
In the league I play in, I not only would not be able to count points off of you, you aren't even qualified to sweep up the locker room. Effective immediately you go onto Diego's shit-list script
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Did I deserve this level of vitriol? I would suggest that your reaction to my credentials is reflexive, in that since you're unable to argue with me based on content, and you're no longer able to score points off the fact that I'm not in a medical field, you're quitting in order to preserve the idea that "you win at the internet." And I'm proud of what I do - medicine is lifelong learning. I'm sure not a great clinician yet, but what we're talking about here is mostly primary research and levels of evidence, which I have done absolutely to death in my previous degrees. I have no qualms about offering my opinion. For what it's worth, I'm sorry you're not interested in a more productive discussion.
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And I have not criticized any report made in this thread.
Last modified: 8mins after originally posted --
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Did I deserve this level of vitriol? I would suggest that your reaction to my credentials is reflexive, in that since you're unable to argue with me based on content, and you're no longer able to score points off the fact that I'm not in a medical field, you're quitting in order to preserve the idea that "you win at the internet." And I'm proud of what I do - medicine is lifelong learning. I'm sure not a great clinician yet, but what we're talking about here is mostly primary research and levels of evidence, which I have done absolutely to death in my previous degrees. I have no qualms about offering my opinion. For what it's worth, I'm sorry you're not interested in a more productive discussion.
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Fisticuffs wrote:
what does everyone else think?
I think you should specialize in proctology. It seems to be where your head is at.
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First you dismiss the study without reading the data. Now, having discovered that the study reports the results of animal trials - a necessary step towards use in humans, you know, you suddenly announce that the study is no good because it is a careful, step-by-step study.
Fisticuffs wrote:
Guess where animal studies are? Right.. at.. the.. bottom!
The next step after successful animal trials is clinical studies on humans. Publishing the successful results of those animal trials is the precursor to beginning to test the drug on human. I hope you understood those words - hell I hope you read them before deciding they're wrong - given your track record, that doesn't seem likely.
Fisticuffs wrote:
the researchers should ethically be doing
Why don't you write to Johns Hopkins and tell them their chief researcher doesn't meet up to your ethical standards - which, apparently, don't require you to read article before reviewing them.
Shepman wrote:
First you dismiss the study without reading the data. Now, having discovered that the study reports the results of animal trials - a necessary step towards use in humans, you know, you suddenly announce that the study is no good because it is a careful, step-by-step study.
It is kind of amusing, isn't it? But, of course, I mean something a bit deeper than how you're understanding that. I mean for you to try to understand the fact that this attitude you're rightly condemning is *precisely* the one you continously exhibit with respect to my posts. And then you bitch because I either ignore you or mock your behavior.
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Shepman wrote:
First you dismiss the study without reading the data. Now, having discovered that the study reports the results of animal trials - a necessary step towards use in humans, you know, you suddenly announce that the study is no good because it is a careful, step-by-step study.
It is kind of amusing, isn't it? But, of course, I mean something a bit deeper than how you're understanding that. I mean for you to try to understand the fact that this attitude you're rightly condemning is *precisely* the one you continously exhibit with respect to my posts. And then you bitch because I either ignore you or mock your behavior.
Ilíon wrote:
And then you bitch because I either ignore you or mock your behavior. Quote Selected Text
My goodness, your grasp on reality seems quite tenuous this morning, little man. I have never complained or "bitched" about your mocking my posts - I would guess because I never noticed that you were trying to do so. Indeed, almost everything you write seems quite humorless, except for an occasional accidental gaffe. As to being ignored by you - I haven't noticed that happening either. Indeed the reverse is true. Your constant clamoring for my attention grows tiresome, either specifically as in the post I am replying to, or your belief that you contribute something to this forum by your plagiaristic posts of boring, stone-aged mentality opinion pieces as if you had much to add besides, "me, too."
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Ilíon wrote:
And then you bitch because I either ignore you or mock your behavior. Quote Selected Text
My goodness, your grasp on reality seems quite tenuous this morning, little man. I have never complained or "bitched" about your mocking my posts - I would guess because I never noticed that you were trying to do so. Indeed, almost everything you write seems quite humorless, except for an occasional accidental gaffe. As to being ignored by you - I haven't noticed that happening either. Indeed the reverse is true. Your constant clamoring for my attention grows tiresome, either specifically as in the post I am replying to, or your belief that you contribute something to this forum by your plagiaristic posts of boring, stone-aged mentality opinion pieces as if you had much to add besides, "me, too."