Powell endorses Obama
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Anyone who advocates for abortion is not a CHristian. Anyone who supports abortion is not a Christian. Anyone who makes excuses for abortion is not a Christian. Anyone who will not admit that abortion is sin is not a Christian. Walking into a church building doesn't make you a Christian any more than walking into a McDonald's makes you a hamburger.
Ilíon wrote:
Anyone who makes excuses for abortion is not a Christian. Anyone who will not admit that abortion is sin is not a Christian.
Ilíon wrote:
With abortion, there are very few instance in which killing the unborn human being is not murder, but there is one general case in which it is not: in which the mother's life honestly is endangered by the pregnancy.
[See the full post here^] Somebody's not Christian. . . :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Well, then, when a person looks past the end of their nose, what do they see? Personnally, when I look past the end of mine, I see people who are horrified by the prospect of a traditional AMerican christian becoming president such as Governor Palin, but actively promote the notion that a practicing muslim becoming president would just be the most wonderful event in the entire history of western civilization. Something about that just does not make any sense what so ever.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
a practicing muslim
You have really sunk that low? I am ashamed of you.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
You have really sunk that low? I am ashamed of you
I have absolutely no idea what you mean. I mean, personnally, I freely admit that I think we should keep Islam as far from political power as we possibly can. But hey, I suppose a muslim would be no worse than a marxist, and we certainly have plenty of those.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Ilíon wrote:
ou *cannot* explain your irrational, intellectually dishonest (and anti-Christian) "argument." That's why you have to resort to emotive misdirection.
I'll take that for a no then. You can't defend your view, you just hold it blindly because you've been told to.
Ilíon wrote:
There are two (or even three) persons immediately involved in all abortions. I speak, of course, not of the "doctor" and "nurses," but of the baby, the mother, and sometimes the father. Of these two (or three), one of them always ends up dead, that being the whole point.
OK, I see. So, so long as the maximum number of people are alive, quality of life means nothing ? Protecting victims means nothing ? Should the guy who raped her even be charged and go to jail ? I mean, the baby needs a father, right ? you're spouting retoric, but you're not actually answering me. Why does the girl who was raped have no rights ? Where does the baby end up ? Why is the non sentient group of cells dividing in her stomach more important than she is ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
Christian Graus wrote:
Why is the non sentient group of cells dividing in her stomach more important than she is ?
But is that "non sentient group of cells" less important than she is? It would seem, in this case, there are two innocent victims of the rape, the girl and her unborn baby. I don't want this to degrade into a "when does life begin" debate, but it is my conviction that it begins at conception. So you can see how it is hard for me to get my arms around taking the life of one innocent victim in order to alleviate some of the pain inflicted on another.
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Me blog, You read
modified on Sunday, October 19, 2008 8:18 PM
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Oakman wrote:
You have really sunk that low? I am ashamed of you
I have absolutely no idea what you mean. I mean, personnally, I freely admit that I think we should keep Islam as far from political power as we possibly can. But hey, I suppose a muslim would be no worse than a marxist, and we certainly have plenty of those.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Ilíon wrote:
Which, lo and behold, is exactly, and all, you proceded to do.
Well, again, you started it.
Ilíon wrote:
I have never "argued" from emotion.
No, because, you're yet to defend your view at all. you've made no argument, so how could it be based on emotion ?
Ilíon wrote:
You're a liar, in any event; so why would you not lie about "in [your] experience?"
Again, your AI code is showing it's cracks. An actual human being would be able to defend their views instead of falling back to these sort of attacks.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
Christian Graus wrote:
Christian Graus: He accused me of not thinking, of just relying on emotion. Ilíon: Which, lo and behold, is exactly, and all, you proceded to do. Christian Graus: Well, again, you started it.
You're such a liar. But, even if you weren't lying, how is "he started it" a justification for your anti-rationality? Let's give you a little run-down, Mr InveterateLiar: Ilíon "starts" it[^]: "Anyone who advocates for abortion is not a CHristian. Anyone who supports abortion is not a Christian. Anyone who makes excuses for abortion is not a Christian. Anyone who will not admit that abortion is sin is not a Christian." Christian Graus doesn't even try to make an anti-rational appeal to emotion[^]:" So ( and I realise I am again asking you to think and discuss here, so feel free to call me dishonest and be done with it ), if a 9 year old girl is repeatedly raped by her step father and becomes pregnant, you'd say that she should be denied an abortion ?" Ilíon responds emotionally[^]:"Did the unborn child this 9 year-old is carrying rape her? Will murdering her unborn child unrape her? Why is it that you people like to toss about emotions as being the basis to "reason" ... but refuse to actually reason?" The ever-rational Christian Graus displays more the logical reasoning for which he is so famed[^]:"OK, good. So you're completely blind. You're saying that the child in this case ( the 9 yo ) doesn't matter to you at all. She has no rights, not even the right to sympathy. And, of course, the child she goes on to raise, is goin
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Well, then, when a person looks past the end of their nose, what do they see? Personnally, when I look past the end of mine, I see people who are horrified by the prospect of a traditional AMerican christian becoming president such as Governor Palin, but actively promote the notion that a practicing muslim becoming president would just be the most wonderful event in the entire history of western civilization. Something about that just does not make any sense what so ever.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I see people who are horrified by the prospect of a traditional AMerican christian becoming president such as Governor Palin,
Who are these people? Friends of yours? I have yet to see anyone, here or on other sites, "horrified" by Palin's religion.
Stan Shannon wrote:
but actively promote the notion that a practicing muslim becoming president would just be the most wonderful event in the entire history of western civilization.
Nor have I seen evidence of this BS.
Obama's plan gives me a $400 per year tax cut. McCain's plan gives me a $80 per year tax cut. Would rather be one of the lucky few to have taxes raised by Obama. (Someone on the Internet)
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I have absolutely no idea what you mean
I think/hope I may have misunderstood. Were you accusing Obama's people of supporting a Muslim for President?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
I was responding generally to this line: Is there something wrong with some seven-year-old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she could be president and the approving response of those who otherwise express horror at stalwart, traditional christians becoming president. I was not referring to Obama. Frankly, I think it is entirely healthy that westerners would be less comfortable with a muslim becoming president than a christian. ANd I think we shouild be able to unapologetically express that view in a free society without having some lefty spewing deadly political venom at us.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Ilíon wrote:
Anyone who makes excuses for abortion is not a Christian. Anyone who will not admit that abortion is sin is not a Christian.
Ilíon wrote:
With abortion, there are very few instance in which killing the unborn human being is not murder, but there is one general case in which it is not: in which the mother's life honestly is endangered by the pregnancy.
[See the full post here^] Somebody's not Christian. . . :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I see people who are horrified by the prospect of a traditional AMerican christian becoming president such as Governor Palin,
Who are these people? Friends of yours? I have yet to see anyone, here or on other sites, "horrified" by Palin's religion.
Stan Shannon wrote:
but actively promote the notion that a practicing muslim becoming president would just be the most wonderful event in the entire history of western civilization.
Nor have I seen evidence of this BS.
Obama's plan gives me a $400 per year tax cut. McCain's plan gives me a $80 per year tax cut. Would rather be one of the lucky few to have taxes raised by Obama. (Someone on the Internet)
Powell himself expressed it to the approval of those on this site.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Why is the non sentient group of cells dividing in her stomach more important than she is ?
But is that "non sentient group of cells" less important than she is? It would seem, in this case, there are two innocent victims of the rape, the girl and her unborn baby. I don't want this to degrade into a "when does life begin" debate, but it is my conviction that it begins at conception. So you can see how it is hard for me to get my arms around taking the life of one innocent victim in order to alleviate some of the pain inflicted on another.
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Me blog, You read
modified on Sunday, October 19, 2008 8:18 PM
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WEll, what I don't get is that it seems the discussion is polarised around two views 1 - the womans body is hers and she can do what she likes with it 2 - all abortion is wrong, the woman has no rights at all I don't agree with either of these positions, I think both are too extreme. I don't agree with abortion as a form of birth control, but I do believe that there are times when it should be considered as a reasonable option. I don't believe that bunch of cells that are madly dividing == a living human being, or that said bunch of cells should take precedence over a living human being.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
Christian Graus wrote:
1 - the womans body is hers and she can do what she likes with it
This is an "extreme" position? I'd like to hear your (non-extreme) position. Also, is that statement extreme only for women?
Obama's plan gives me a $400 per year tax cut. McCain's plan gives me a $80 per year tax cut. Would rather be one of the lucky few to have taxes raised by Obama. (Someone on the Internet)
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I was responding generally to this line: Is there something wrong with some seven-year-old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she could be president and the approving response of those who otherwise express horror at stalwart, traditional christians becoming president. I was not referring to Obama. Frankly, I think it is entirely healthy that westerners would be less comfortable with a muslim becoming president than a christian. ANd I think we shouild be able to unapologetically express that view in a free society without having some lefty spewing deadly political venom at us.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Christian Graus wrote:
1 - the womans body is hers and she can do what she likes with it
This is an "extreme" position? I'd like to hear your (non-extreme) position. Also, is that statement extreme only for women?
Obama's plan gives me a $400 per year tax cut. McCain's plan gives me a $80 per year tax cut. Would rather be one of the lucky few to have taxes raised by Obama. (Someone on the Internet)
Al Beback wrote:
This is an "extreme" position? I'd like to hear your (non-extreme) position. Also, is that statement extreme only for women?
We tell people all the time what they can and cannot do with their bodies. It is hardly the fault of the legal system that women are biologically designed to bare children. The question is when is the child a distinct individual with the same rights as the women bearing it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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And of course, one expects Oakman, the Liar-in-Chief to misrepresent things. You pathetic damned fool, did you really imagine I didn't know you'd try that?
Ilíon wrote:
And of course, one expects Oakman, the Liar-in-Chief to misrepresent things
I have such a nasty habit of bookmarking your more egregious quotes, don't I? And what better way of misrepresenting you than to quote you word for word and provide a link to your entire confused pronouncement. No wonder you no longer have the balls to actually voice your own opinion.
Ilíon wrote:
did you really imagine I didn't know you'd try that?
I blind-sided you, who are you kidding? Just admit it, Troy, you aren't a Christian, according to your own standards. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Ilíon wrote:
ou *cannot* explain your irrational, intellectually dishonest (and anti-Christian) "argument." That's why you have to resort to emotive misdirection.
I'll take that for a no then. You can't defend your view, you just hold it blindly because you've been told to.
Ilíon wrote:
There are two (or even three) persons immediately involved in all abortions. I speak, of course, not of the "doctor" and "nurses," but of the baby, the mother, and sometimes the father. Of these two (or three), one of them always ends up dead, that being the whole point.
OK, I see. So, so long as the maximum number of people are alive, quality of life means nothing ? Protecting victims means nothing ? Should the guy who raped her even be charged and go to jail ? I mean, the baby needs a father, right ? you're spouting retoric, but you're not actually answering me. Why does the girl who was raped have no rights ? Where does the baby end up ? Why is the non sentient group of cells dividing in her stomach more important than she is ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
Christian Graus wrote:
you're spouting retoric, but you're not actually answering me.
It's logically impossible to answer a fool, or a liar (refuting a liar is a different matter). Since I am a rational being who tries always to be logical and honest, I don't attempt the logically impossible.
Christian Graus wrote:
Why is the non sentient group of cells dividing in her stomach more important than she is ?
My point of view, FWIW, is that abortion as a form of birth control is wrong, but that education is more important than prohibition. However, to flat out ban all abortion, including in the sort of cases I am talking about, is also wrong. There's a grey area.
You really ought to work on that illogical and irrational contradiction. Oh, and by the way, there is no such thing as grey -- grey is merely black and white that we haven't yet separated. Frequently because we refuse even to look and see that it can be separated.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I was not referring to Obama.
Ok, I apologise
Stan Shannon wrote:
lefty spewing deadly political venom at us.
Oily is many things, but hardly a cobra
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Oily is many things, but hardly a cobra
Perhaps, but that is what Powell's quoted comment was intended as. There has been no effort by the McCain administration to exploit Obama's muslim connections. It is Obama himself who takes exception to being called by his muslim middle name.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Al Beback wrote:
This is an "extreme" position? I'd like to hear your (non-extreme) position. Also, is that statement extreme only for women?
We tell people all the time what they can and cannot do with their bodies. It is hardly the fault of the legal system that women are biologically designed to bare children. The question is when is the child a distinct individual with the same rights as the women bearing it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
We tell people all the time what they can and cannot do with their bodies.
No. We tell them what they should do, which is totally different. They still have a... hmmm, what's the word I'm looking for here..., oh yeah, Choice.
Obama's plan gives me a $400 per year tax cut. McCain's plan gives me a $80 per year tax cut. Would rather be one of the lucky few to have taxes raised by Obama. (Someone on the Internet)
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Stan Shannon wrote:
We tell people all the time what they can and cannot do with their bodies.
No. We tell them what they should do, which is totally different. They still have a... hmmm, what's the word I'm looking for here..., oh yeah, Choice.
Obama's plan gives me a $400 per year tax cut. McCain's plan gives me a $80 per year tax cut. Would rather be one of the lucky few to have taxes raised by Obama. (Someone on the Internet)
Al Beback wrote:
They still have a... hmmm, what's the word I'm looking for here..., oh yeah, Choice.
Actually we also limit people's choices all the time also, even when it involves their own bodies. We are not, nor have we ever been a libertarian society. But, fine, have the government encode that concept into law and the issue will be resolved. I'll be happy with whatever law our elected representatives establish on the issue. Hell, as far as I'm concerned they can define human life as beginning at the first fart, the first intelligible spoken word, or the first algebra equation solved - as long as it represents the actual will of the people.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/10/19/powell-endorses-obama-in-no-uncertain-terms.aspx[^] In addition, I found this quite powerful"
And it is permitted to be said such things as, "Well, you know that Mr. Obama is a Muslim." Well, the correct answer is, he is not a Muslim, he's a Christian. He's always been a Christian. But the really right answer is, what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer's no, that's not America. Is there something wrong with some seven-year-old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she could be president?
oilFactotum wrote:
And it is permitted to be said such things as, "Well, you know that Mr. Obama is a Muslim." Well, the correct answer is, he is not a Muslim, he's a Christian. He's always been a Christian. But the really right answer is, what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer's no, that's not America. Is there something wrong with some seven-year-old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she could be president?
Yes, that was one of my favourite bits too.
John Carson