Let's sum it up
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An atheist is a believer. An agnostic is not.
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
Ka?l wrote:
An atheist is a believer. An agnostic is not.
Karl, doesn't the effort that the folks here who spent such an inordinate amount of time shouting down people of faith make you wonder? Why spent that much time and effort arguing against something you don't believe in? Could it be ... ?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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An atheist is a believer. An agnostic is not.
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
That's wrong. An atheist simply lacks a belief in one or more gods. An agnostic believes that the ultimate truth of the universe is unknowabble. So, answering the question "do you believe in god?" with "I'm an agnostic" makes no sense. I actually am an agnostic, but that has nothing to do with whether I believe in a god. I'm both an agnostic and an athiest. These words are answers to two different questions.
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Oakman wrote:
Who told you there was a fence? God?
A fence has two sides used for separation of two things. One side would be yes, the other would be no. Therefore, if you will neither say yes nor no, you are on the metaphorical fence. I'm not liking how this is making me look like a militant atheist who thinks everyone who doesn't share my thought is stupid. I really don't care about what anyone believes. That's your business and your free time. I thought it was a funny quote. I'm not in the mood for a back and forth on this. I have better things to do, as I'm sure you do. Enjoy your debates...
[Insert Witty Sig Here]
VonHagNDaz wrote:
A fence has two sides used for separation of two things. One side would be yes, the other would be no. Therefore, if you will neither say yes nor no, you are on the metaphorical fence.
There is no fence. "Do you believe in god?" Yes - Theist No - Atheist There is no middle ground. "I don't know" is the same as "no" -- you don't believe. Whether or not you believe that it's ever possible to know the truth has nothing to do with what you believe. You can be an agnotist theist or an agnostic atheist.
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James L. Thomson wrote:
Calling an atheist a believer is nonsensica
No, it's not. An atheist believes there is no God. They are a believer. In fact, some of them are more dogmatic and illogical than any Christian or other believer in God.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
Christian Graus wrote:
An atheist believes there is no God.
A newborn baby believes in nothing. Yet all babies are atheists, are they not? Or are you using some strange definition of the word atheist that I'm not familiar with? What if you found a tribe of people on some remote island and when you questioned them you found they knew nothing about religion, nobody in their society had ever invented the concept of gods. These people would correctly be described as atheists, would they not? Yet they don't believe anything about god; they have no concept of god. They lack a believe in god. Is this not the definition of atheism?
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thrakazog wrote:
Atheists at least have consistency on their side.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.." ~ Ralph Waldo Emmerson. Dracula is dead - that's different data than I'm the guy who slips the $5.00 under my kids pillow when he loses a tooth, which is different from there are sightings of Bigfoot that have not been explained well enough to dismiss, etc. To have one answer for all questions, isn't consistent - it's just foolish.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
"I have opinions of my own -- strong opinions --but I don't always agree with them." George Bush, US President Yes, quoting famous people sure does prove a point.
Oakman wrote:
I'm the guy who slips the $5.00 under my kids pillow when he loses a tooth
So your point is that the tooth fairy exists and is in fact you? Can I have my teeth back?
Oakman wrote:
To have one answer for all questions, isn't consistent - it's just foolish
When the questions you're getting are in the form of "Here's some superstition that some guys pulled out of their asses do you want to believe it with no proof?" I'm going to stick with my one answer. Not doing so would be foolish. But then again I'm not the tooth fairy. You may have some insight that I don't.
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VonHagNDaz wrote:
So the agnostic is the smarter for sitting on the fence
It's not fence-sitting. It's a simple recognition that you have insufficient evidence to prove either conjecture. Atheists are no different than believers, for they also choose a conjecture to embrace as proven fact without evidence. Of the three, only agnostics are unpersuaded by the propaganda from believers in either conjecture.
Rob Graham wrote:
Atheists are no different than believers, for they also choose a conjecture to embrace as proven fact without evidence.
Maybe they see all the bad things in the world and see that as evidence that there is no god. Not a good god anyways.
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Rob Graham wrote:
Atheists are no different than believers, for they also choose a conjecture to embrace as proven fact without evidence.
Maybe they see all the bad things in the world and see that as evidence that there is no god. Not a good god anyways.
No matter how you cut it, the evidence is inconclusive.
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No matter how you cut it, the evidence is inconclusive.
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Problem with agnostics is that they usually lack any consistency in their (non?)belief system. Ask an agnostic if god exists and the answer you are likely to get is "maybe/unknown". Ask them if Bigfoot, leprechauns, the Toothfairy, or Dracula exists and the answer you most likely get is "No." It seems to me that if they really want to stick with being agnostic they would have to be equally open to ALL superstitions being possible regardless of how idiotic they sound. Why draw a line in the sand for religion and not the other superstitions? Atheists at least have consistency on their side. Ask them the same questions and the answer you get is: "[insert superstition here] does not exist."
thrakazog wrote:
Atheists at least have consistency on their side. Ask them the same questions and the answer you get is: "[insert superstition here] does not exist."
That's not consistency, that's an arrogant belief unsupported by conclusive evidence, which makes Atheists just as much "true believers" as any religious fundie. The other side of the same coin.
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:rose: Frankly, I have no dog in this fight. I neither know the answer, nor find the question important.
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thrakazog wrote:
Atheists at least have consistency on their side. Ask them the same questions and the answer you get is: "[insert superstition here] does not exist."
That's not consistency, that's an arrogant belief unsupported by conclusive evidence, which makes Atheists just as much "true believers" as any religious fundie. The other side of the same coin.
Rob Graham wrote:
That's not consistency
Actually, it is. Perhaps you would like to consult Mr. Dictionary: Consistency[^]
Rob Graham wrote:
arrogant belief unsupported by conclusive evidence
Welcome to every possible side of the argument. We're glad to have you.
Rob Graham wrote:
as any religious fundie
Well yes, minus the ceremonies, rituals, Sunday mornings that could have been spent watching football, and hope for an afterlife. I can live with that.
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An atheist is a believer. An agnostic is not.
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
Ka?l wrote:
An atheist is a believer. An agnostic is not.
Nonsense; an 'agnostic' is a believer, also. What an 'agnostic' is logically committed to believing is that "nothing at all (about anything at all) may be known!" Now, of course, no one can actually function like that. So, as a practical matter, 'agnostics' *behave* as though they were 'atheists.'
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ROTFL - I asked him that ages ago.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "Iam doing the browsing center project in vb.net using c# coding" - this is why I don't answer questions much anymore. Oh, and Microsoft doesn't want me to.
Maiden's my all time favorite band. Everytime I see the name I have to think about it, so I had to ask once.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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An agnostic is a atheist who is too pussy to admit it to society...
[Insert Witty Sig Here]
Rubbish. Nobody, absolutely nobody, knows* the existence (or lack thereof) of Gods. Agnosticism is the only real position here. * Although some whackos claim to.
Cheers, Vıkram.
"You idiot British surprise me that your generators which grew up after Mid 50s had no brain at all." - Adnan Siddiqi.
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"I have opinions of my own -- strong opinions --but I don't always agree with them." George Bush, US President Yes, quoting famous people sure does prove a point.
Oakman wrote:
I'm the guy who slips the $5.00 under my kids pillow when he loses a tooth
So your point is that the tooth fairy exists and is in fact you? Can I have my teeth back?
Oakman wrote:
To have one answer for all questions, isn't consistent - it's just foolish
When the questions you're getting are in the form of "Here's some superstition that some guys pulled out of their asses do you want to believe it with no proof?" I'm going to stick with my one answer. Not doing so would be foolish. But then again I'm not the tooth fairy. You may have some insight that I don't.
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Christian Graus wrote:
An atheist believes there is no God.
A newborn baby believes in nothing. Yet all babies are atheists, are they not? Or are you using some strange definition of the word atheist that I'm not familiar with? What if you found a tribe of people on some remote island and when you questioned them you found they knew nothing about religion, nobody in their society had ever invented the concept of gods. These people would correctly be described as atheists, would they not? Yet they don't believe anything about god; they have no concept of god. They lack a believe in god. Is this not the definition of atheism?
scpierre wrote:
Or are you using some strange definition of the word atheist that I'm not familiar with?
Atheist means not a theist. Since you never defined what you mean by theist how the hell should anyone know what you mean when you use the word?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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An agnostic is somebody wise enough to admit that they don't have the answer. An atheist is somebody who thinks the answer isn't religion.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
BoneSoft wrote:
An atheist is somebody who thinks the answer isn't religion.
That's right, but it doesn't make me a believer.
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Rubbish. Nobody, absolutely nobody, knows* the existence (or lack thereof) of Gods. Agnosticism is the only real position here. * Although some whackos claim to.
Cheers, Vıkram.
"You idiot British surprise me that your generators which grew up after Mid 50s had no brain at all." - Adnan Siddiqi.
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
Agnosticism is the only real position here.
I disagree. I think there is sufficient evidence (or rather, absence of evidence in favour of religion) to reject religion outright. It is quite obvious that it is a primitive human construct.
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Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
Agnosticism is the only real position here.
I disagree. I think there is sufficient evidence (or rather, absence of evidence in favour of religion) to reject religion outright. It is quite obvious that it is a primitive human construct.
73Zeppelin wrote:
to reject religion outright
Sure, fine. But Agnosticism isn't about religion. It's focus is whether there is a god or not. I find it mildly amusing that most religionists confuse a belief in a god of some sort with joining their church and most atheists think that pointing out the (myriad) flaws in one or more religions means that there is no God. Accepting all the mumbo-jumbo that Adnan or Selormy or Troy put themselves through means you belong to a sect. Believing in God can mean no more than you believe there was a First Cause somewhat more sentient than the inexplicable Big Bang.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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73Zeppelin wrote:
to reject religion outright
Sure, fine. But Agnosticism isn't about religion. It's focus is whether there is a god or not. I find it mildly amusing that most religionists confuse a belief in a god of some sort with joining their church and most atheists think that pointing out the (myriad) flaws in one or more religions means that there is no God. Accepting all the mumbo-jumbo that Adnan or Selormy or Troy put themselves through means you belong to a sect. Believing in God can mean no more than you believe there was a First Cause somewhat more sentient than the inexplicable Big Bang.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Sure, fine. But Agnosticism isn't about religion. It's focus is whether there is a god or not. I find it mildly amusing that most religionists confuse a belief in a god of some sort with joining their church and most atheists think that pointing out the (myriad) flaws in one or more religions means that there is no God. Accepting all the mumbo-jumbo that Adnan or Selormy or Troy put themselves through means you belong to a sect. Believing in God can mean no more than you believe there was a First Cause somewhat more sentient than the inexplicable Big Bang.
Then it's another pedantic issue surrounding the concept of 'god'. If you want to start assigning a broad category of "first causes" to the word 'god' it becomes difficult to determine context. In that sense, 'god' is now loosely and multiply defined as the Christian god, Alloah, some other divine being as in the Masonic sense or now some arbitrary assignment to the "power" that initiated the universe. Across all meanings, however, it represents a certain abstractness that is indicative of a lack of understanding. Rather than labelling it the work of some 'god', I admit there is no current understanding of why anything is here and refuse to invoke mystical beings in order to put some kind of naive closure on the question. Obviously our current level of knowledge is insufficient to answer the question - that may not always be the case. In that sense, given their history and predilection for censorship, religion may seek to prevent the ultimate answer to the question of 'why'. For that reason (among others) I am strongly opposed to organized religion.