Solution for terrorism
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I believe that's who I mean, yes.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Christian Graus wrote:
I believe that's who I mean, yes.
I suspect you actually meant the grandchildren of Palestinians who either fled their homeland because of the 47-48 war on their own, or were forced to leave by the Israelis during that period. There were, according to UN figures, originally about 700,000 refugees, but there are now approximately 4,000,000 who claim to be descended from those who lost their homes because of the war. (I suggest to you that a lack of birth control may have had something to do with the level of poverty seen in many of these camps.) I brought up the Jordanians because they have the majority of the land of the original Palestine Mandate given to the Brits when France and England were busy dividing up the oil rich lands they'd taken from the Turks in WWI. They are, of course, a peaceful country, a constitutional monarchy, that has suceeded without having enough oil to meet its domestic needs, and none for export. They have relatively peaceful relations with Israel and have had so for many years. They neither attack their neighbors, nor seek to export religious-based violence in spite of being almost 90% Muslim. The Palestinian refugees, who plight is dire, are treated as second or third class citizens by the Arab countries that have set up closed camps for them - not unlike the way Oz and the US treated their indigines when they were displaced from their homelands. In some Arab countries where they reside, they are discriminated against by law or custom and cannot hold any but the most menial jobs. No attempt is made to integrate them with the general population nor is there anything but the most basic of aid provided to them by the Arab brothers -- although Saudi Arabia has a long tradition of rewarding those who blow themselves up inside of Israel.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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What you are really trying to say, Christian, is that terrorism is the fault of evil greedy capitalists. If only we would all be good little marxists and 'spread the wealth around' there would be less terrorism. Well, no there would not, there would simply be more socialism along with more terrorism.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
What you are really trying to say, Christian, is that terrorism is the fault of evil greedy capitalists.
No, I don't believe I was saying that. I feel the need to say you're an idiot, but I'm not going to say that either. I think you made that clear, already. What a strange imaginary world you live in.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
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You're a perfect example of a recruiter if you were a religious leader. Extremely short sighted and slightly more intelligent than the average bear, so you'd be able to convince some of the young'uns. Fundamentalism is certainly an engine that's running terrorism, but its not the primary cause. Come live in this part of the world, learn a new meaning of poor and then judge, if any human has the right to judge.
Stan Shannon wrote:
They have every moral and legal right to use force to compel change from those societies which produce the terrorism.
That, is precisely what they, the terrorists think, so really, you're advocating their cause by simply saying that their reasoning is correct.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
You're a perfect example of a recruiter if you were a religious leader. Extremely short sighted and slightly more intelligent than the average bear, so you'd be able to convince some of the young'uns. Fundamentalism is certainly an engine that's running terrorism, but its not the primary cause. Come live in this part of the world, learn a new meaning of poor and then judge, if any human has the right to judge.
The people where you live are not one bit more poor than are the people of India, or the people of Mexico or the people of any number of other places. The only real difference is that those other people are generally not culturally predisposed to be complete assholes. The enire argument about 'increasing recruitment' would be true regardless of what we do. The notion that we would reduce recruitment by rewarding the terrorism with some kind of monetary payment of some kind is laughable. We would get more of it. We have tried everything possible and recruitment continues to increase. If this is really a war against capitalism, why don't you just say so?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Christian Graus wrote:
I believe that's who I mean, yes.
I suspect you actually meant the grandchildren of Palestinians who either fled their homeland because of the 47-48 war on their own, or were forced to leave by the Israelis during that period. There were, according to UN figures, originally about 700,000 refugees, but there are now approximately 4,000,000 who claim to be descended from those who lost their homes because of the war. (I suggest to you that a lack of birth control may have had something to do with the level of poverty seen in many of these camps.) I brought up the Jordanians because they have the majority of the land of the original Palestine Mandate given to the Brits when France and England were busy dividing up the oil rich lands they'd taken from the Turks in WWI. They are, of course, a peaceful country, a constitutional monarchy, that has suceeded without having enough oil to meet its domestic needs, and none for export. They have relatively peaceful relations with Israel and have had so for many years. They neither attack their neighbors, nor seek to export religious-based violence in spite of being almost 90% Muslim. The Palestinian refugees, who plight is dire, are treated as second or third class citizens by the Arab countries that have set up closed camps for them - not unlike the way Oz and the US treated their indigines when they were displaced from their homelands. In some Arab countries where they reside, they are discriminated against by law or custom and cannot hold any but the most menial jobs. No attempt is made to integrate them with the general population nor is there anything but the most basic of aid provided to them by the Arab brothers -- although Saudi Arabia has a long tradition of rewarding those who blow themselves up inside of Israel.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Yes, that is who I meant.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
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Would that make the Star Trek society marxist?
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Stan Shannon wrote:
What you are really trying to say, Christian, is that terrorism is the fault of evil greedy capitalists.
No, I don't believe I was saying that. I feel the need to say you're an idiot, but I'm not going to say that either. I think you made that clear, already. What a strange imaginary world you live in.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
OK, so let me get this straight. Terrorism is caused by poverty and injustice. Right? But poverty and injustice has nothing at all to do with the global economy? That there is no link of any kind between the economy and poverty and injustice? Is that what you are saying? If so, what do you suggest we do about poverty and injustice? How do we resolve the issue?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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I don't know the solution to terrorism in general. BUt there is an easy solution to Islamic terrorism. Every single time there is an attack done in the name of Islam, we take out one of their most cherised holy sites. Give a little warning time, then send in a few cruise missles and just remove the damn thing from the face of the earth with nothing left but a goddamned crater. Maybe drop in a little pig poop after the attack just to add insult to injury. I'm pretty sure as we worked our way up to mecca something would sure as hell change.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Every single time there is an attack done in the name of Islam, we take out one of their most cherised holy sites.
Hey, we could also skin their babies alive and broadcast the operations on CNN - whadayah think? Lots of reaction shots of their mothers watching. . .boy I bet the Muslims would all convert to Christianity when they saw that!!!
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Every single time there is an attack done in the name of Islam, we take out one of their most cherised holy sites.
Hey, we could also skin their babies alive and broadcast the operations on CNN - whadayah think? Lots of reaction shots of their mothers watching. . .boy I bet the Muslims would all convert to Christianity when they saw that!!!
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Hey, we could also skin their babies alive and broadcast the operations on CNN - whadayah think? Lots of reaction shots of their mothers watching. . .boy I bet the Muslims would all convert to Christianity when they saw that!!!
Sounds a little harse, but what the hell, it worked on the Cherokees (except for the CNN part, of course)
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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OK, so let me get this straight. Terrorism is caused by poverty and injustice. Right? But poverty and injustice has nothing at all to do with the global economy? That there is no link of any kind between the economy and poverty and injustice? Is that what you are saying? If so, what do you suggest we do about poverty and injustice? How do we resolve the issue?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Terrorism is caused by poverty and injustice. Right
No, poverty and injustice create the situations in which terrorism can be created. It's not a direct link, or all poor people would be terrorists. But, rich people, or even people with a hope for the future, are harder to convince to blow themselves up.
Stan Shannon wrote:
But poverty and injustice has nothing at all to do with the global economy?
Not sure how the economy came into it. The people targetted for terrorism are usually people who are being oppressed themselves and want to fight back, not just people who live in a trailer park and don't work.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If so, what do you suggest we do about poverty and injustice? How do we resolve the issue?
Well, withdrawing us support for Israel until they stop oppressing their neighbours would be a place to start. But, I was not suggesting that it's your fault personally, or that there's much you can hope to do.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
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Would that make the Star Trek society marxist?
Roddenberry was a humanist like many who hang out here. It would not be surprising if he had intentionally desgined the Star Trek universe to be a kind of advanced Marxism. Humanist will never admit that they are Marxist, but generally do accept everything about it other than the name.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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I don't know the solution to terrorism in general. BUt there is an easy solution to Islamic terrorism. Every single time there is an attack done in the name of Islam, we take out one of their most cherised holy sites. Give a little warning time, then send in a few cruise missles and just remove the damn thing from the face of the earth with nothing left but a goddamned crater. Maybe drop in a little pig poop after the attack just to add insult to injury. I'm pretty sure as we worked our way up to mecca something would sure as hell change.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Why do you say such inflamitory things like that and please don't resort to 'because it's true'?
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Terrorism is caused by poverty and injustice. Right
No, poverty and injustice create the situations in which terrorism can be created. It's not a direct link, or all poor people would be terrorists. But, rich people, or even people with a hope for the future, are harder to convince to blow themselves up.
Stan Shannon wrote:
But poverty and injustice has nothing at all to do with the global economy?
Not sure how the economy came into it. The people targetted for terrorism are usually people who are being oppressed themselves and want to fight back, not just people who live in a trailer park and don't work.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If so, what do you suggest we do about poverty and injustice? How do we resolve the issue?
Well, withdrawing us support for Israel until they stop oppressing their neighbours would be a place to start. But, I was not suggesting that it's your fault personally, or that there's much you can hope to do.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, withdrawing us support for Israel until they stop oppressing their neighbours would be a place to start. But, I was not suggesting that it's your fault personally, or that there's much you can hope to do.
I might agree with that, but only after the Palistinians agreed to and carried through on a promise of no terrorism against Israel for a period of at least 10 years. If they can prove they have the ability to control their terrorists, which would remove Israel's need to oppress anyone, than you might have an argument.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Roddenberry was a humanist like many who hang out here. It would not be surprising if he had intentionally desgined the Star Trek universe to be a kind of advanced Marxism. Humanist will never admit that they are Marxist, but generally do accept everything about it other than the name.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Dictionary.com: humanism: a variety of ethical theory and practice that emphasizes reason, scientific inquiry, and human fulfillment in the natural world and often rejects the importance of belief in God. Dictionary.com: Marxism: the doctrine that the state throughout history has been a device for the exploitation of the masses by a dominant class, that class struggle has been the main agency of historical change, and that the capitalist system, containing from the first the seeds of its own decay, will inevitably, after the period of the dictatorship of the proletariat, be superseded by a socialist order and a classless society. How are these two things similar Stan?
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5 - you're right, if we could fight poverty then people would have hope in this life and not place their hope in promises for the next made by cynical leaders looking for bomb fodder. Although one wonders if Adnan, for example, is poor, or just stupid.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Christian Graus wrote:
one wonders if Adnan, for example, is poor, or just stupid
Well, with what he posts in this forum, I thought it was evident.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
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I think the answer to that question is largely environmental. People don't wake up and decide to commit suicide, they are taught those attitudes. I also think that at least part of the problem is that Muslims in Palestine, for example, have a clear enemy who causes their poverty, making it easier for them to hate.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
I agree.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
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Why do you say such inflamitory things like that and please don't resort to 'because it's true'?
wolfbinary wrote:
Why do you say such inflamitory things like that and please don't resort to 'because it's true'?
Because I think being inflametory is a legitimate response. There is way too much "oh, why can't we all just get along" in western society. I think that kind of candy ass attitude on our part is as much a part of the problem as is anything else we are doing. I believe that we need an overtly hostile stance on the issue of Islamic terrorism. Thre is nothing to understand, there is nothing to accomodate, there is nothing to consider. They simply need to be made to understand that we hold them collectively responsible for violence done in the name of their goddamned religion. Once they get everything under control like normal civilized people do, then we can all set down and have a nice civilized conversation over a cup of tea.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Seriously ? Sure, the people exploiting the bombers are rich. The people without whom the whole system fails, who give their lives, you think they are recruited from night clubs and meetings of investment bankers ? They are recruited from the oppressed and the poor.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Some societies have developed social and legal infrastuctures sufficiently robust to prevent such inherent violence from bubbling out of control. Others have not.
The infrastructure only works because most people have a vested interest in making it work. It's not the fault of the people, per se, they don't choose terrorism over peace and prosperity, they don't have that short term choice and they see no way out.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Christian Graus wrote:
They are recruited from the oppressed and the poor.
Because the ones exploiting them know with money they can lure them into it.
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon "Not only do you continue to babble nonsense, you can't even correctly remember the nonsense you babbled just minutes ago." - Rob Graham
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wolfbinary wrote:
Why do you say such inflamitory things like that and please don't resort to 'because it's true'?
Because I think being inflametory is a legitimate response. There is way too much "oh, why can't we all just get along" in western society. I think that kind of candy ass attitude on our part is as much a part of the problem as is anything else we are doing. I believe that we need an overtly hostile stance on the issue of Islamic terrorism. Thre is nothing to understand, there is nothing to accomodate, there is nothing to consider. They simply need to be made to understand that we hold them collectively responsible for violence done in the name of their goddamned religion. Once they get everything under control like normal civilized people do, then we can all set down and have a nice civilized conversation over a cup of tea.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
So then then all people from a country, such as the US, are collectively responsible for every action every person in their country makes?
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So then then all people from a country, such as the US, are collectively responsible for every action every person in their country makes?
wolfbinary wrote:
So then then all people from a country, such as the US, are collectively responsible for every action every person in their country makes?
Certainly Al Qaeda holds that view. In Osama's own words we (Americans and Europeans) are jointly and individually guilty because, as democracies we select the leaders that carry out the policies the he takes offense to. This was his justification of the 911 attacks and later the Madrid and London attacks. Civilians were legitimate targets for this reason.
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wolfbinary wrote:
So then then all people from a country, such as the US, are collectively responsible for every action every person in their country makes?
Certainly Al Qaeda holds that view. In Osama's own words we (Americans and Europeans) are jointly and individually guilty because, as democracies we select the leaders that carry out the policies the he takes offense to. This was his justification of the 911 attacks and later the Madrid and London attacks. Civilians were legitimate targets for this reason.
Rob Graham wrote:
In Osama's own wor
That's why I asked. We cannot resort to the extremes of society as legitamate foriegn policy. There are cultural differences that far out weigh any religion differences here that are in play. The middle east and much of Africa, from what I know (not much admittenly), have been killing each other for quite a while without us there. Are all Christians responsible forever and ever for the crusades? When do we stop perpetuating the cycle with rationalizing bad behavior with worse behavior of our own? Are you saying, Stan, that we are to wipe them out completely?