Solution for terrorism
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Rob Graham wrote:
What I might prefer isn't an available option.
I prefer to take responsibility for my own actions. When Osama - or Stan if he ever gets any power - stops hiding behind "my victims drove me to do it," then they will have earned the right to walk on their hind legs.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
I prefer to take responsibility for my own actions.
Than why do you want the federal courts protecting you from any possibility that you might need to reach some kind of political compromise with your neighbors?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Oakman wrote:
I prefer to take responsibility for my own actions.
Than why do you want the federal courts protecting you from any possibility that you might need to reach some kind of political compromise with your neighbors?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Than why do you want the federal courts protecting you from any possibility that you might need to reach some kind of political compromise with your neighbors?
Are you drinking again, Stan? Don't you have to go to work in the morning?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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I didn't expect to see my name here :) But I more or less ignore that asshat these days, and I am happier :)
Cheers, Vıkram.
Stand up to be seen. Speak up to be heard. Shut up to be appreciated.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
agree with you on this. I've always wondered if maybe some sort of capital caste system is required. Then you can be richer than others, but not so rich that you're richer than 90% of the world population.
The irony is that capitalism is the only economic system capable of producing the greatest amount of wealth for the greatest number of people. If all the people of the world trully enjoyed economic liberty - the ability to earn as much as their efforts and abilities allowed with as little government confiscation of that wealth as possible - human civilization would enjoy an explosion of wealth that would dwarf everything that as come before. But that is precisely what the governments of the world are trying to avoid, economic liberty means true freedom and independence from government itself. That is something they will never freely give.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
The irony is that capitalism is the only economic system capable of producing the greatest amount of wealth for the greatest number of people
There will be pie in the sky, bye and bye, don't you cry . . .
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
agree with you on this. I've always wondered if maybe some sort of capital caste system is required. Then you can be richer than others, but not so rich that you're richer than 90% of the world population.
The irony is that capitalism is the only economic system capable of producing the greatest amount of wealth for the greatest number of people. If all the people of the world trully enjoyed economic liberty - the ability to earn as much as their efforts and abilities allowed with as little government confiscation of that wealth as possible - human civilization would enjoy an explosion of wealth that would dwarf everything that as come before. But that is precisely what the governments of the world are trying to avoid, economic liberty means true freedom and independence from government itself. That is something they will never freely give.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
The irony is that capitalism is the only economic system capable of producing the greatest amount of wealth for the greatest number of people.
Where's the proof on this? Have we exhausted every possible way of doing it? Also, are we only working for money, or to improve mankind? What is our goal in life? I always thought that every capital system was a zero-end game. You work for a buck and charge a hundred, then someone else will do the same and negate that. If they don't, then eventually your profit will be devalued (stock or revolution) when they realize it's biased to your advantage. I never understood the concept of everyone getting rich. Money is just a placeholder for services rendered. Eventually, you have to pay up the full amount.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
All countries fight for their interests using whatever means possible. The total number of Muslim fundamentalists compared to those that aren't is astronomically small.
That cannot possibly be true. If it were, there would be no difficulty for muslim countries to control them.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
The number of poor compared to filthy rich princes and oil sheiks is astronomically high.
No more than it is in dozens of other societies which do not produce such horrific terrorism.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Poverty, combined with no education, hunger, and mental instability caused by years of oppression and depression can cause people to do crazy things.
Especially if their society raises them to be insane in the first place.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
What the f*** is wrong with sharing and working to better all of mankind?
Because some centralized authority has to be given the power to define and enforce what 'better' means.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If it were, there would be no difficulty for muslim countries to control them.
Would, not could. Do you call the cops every time your neighbors fight?
Stan Shannon wrote:
Especially if their society raises them to be insane in the first place.
I'm not playing the blame game here. Everyone sees things differently.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Because some centralized authority has to be given the power to define and enforce what 'better' means.
Usually, the less people complain or revolt, the better things are. But even a centralized authority, ideally, has to answer to the people. So that brings up my original question. What's wrong in working to better mankind?
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
All countries fight for their interests using whatever means possible. The total number of Muslim fundamentalists compared to those that aren't is astronomically small.
That cannot possibly be true. If it were, there would be no difficulty for muslim countries to control them.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
The number of poor compared to filthy rich princes and oil sheiks is astronomically high.
No more than it is in dozens of other societies which do not produce such horrific terrorism.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Poverty, combined with no education, hunger, and mental instability caused by years of oppression and depression can cause people to do crazy things.
Especially if their society raises them to be insane in the first place.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
What the f*** is wrong with sharing and working to better all of mankind?
Because some centralized authority has to be given the power to define and enforce what 'better' means.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
That cannot possibly be true. If it were, there would be no difficulty for muslim countries to control them
Which is, of course, why we aren't worried about Muslim extremists entering the U.S. and doing us damage. There are so few of them and so many of us that we would control them seconds after they showed up. Only in countries where they are encouraged to walk down the street wearing signs that say, "I am a terrorist," while firing their rifles in the air and drooling spittle out of their mouths, could a terrorist possibly not be controlled. Any efforts at concealment by terrorists are always unsuccesful because of Uncle Stan's terrost-finder - available to all non-Marxist governments for ten cents and two wheaties boxtops.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Dictionary.com: humanism: a variety of ethical theory and practice that emphasizes reason, scientific inquiry, and human fulfillment in the natural world and often rejects the importance of belief in God. Dictionary.com: Marxism: the doctrine that the state throughout history has been a device for the exploitation of the masses by a dominant class, that class struggle has been the main agency of historical change, and that the capitalist system, containing from the first the seeds of its own decay, will inevitably, after the period of the dictatorship of the proletariat, be superseded by a socialist order and a classless society. How are these two things similar Stan?
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Coming from a region thats blamed continuously for terrorism, I know exactly how you feel. Its terrible when a few aberrants tar the rest. One thing I'll tell you, there are two main causes of terrorism. Injustice and poverty. These two have people running, looking for spiritual advice. Sadly, instead of promoting tolerance and harmony like every religion does, these so called religious leaders start the process of brain washing and lure many a young and susceptible person into their ranks. Of course, these are not the only causes but in this part of the world (developing) its the primal pair. State sanctioned terrorism has a political agenda behind it, if only to undermine the power and stability of neighbors and enemies even in peace time. Some do it as a show of strength. Ultimately, its hateful. If you find an answer, tell me, I'd love to help put it into effect here locally and globally.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
I was following Pakistani media as well. In india if any media discussion happened (forget headlines today) there would be people participating with different opinions anfd there would be debates. Here what I could see in pakistani media is , terrible indian bashing and everybody is united on it. They are keep on repeating the same arguments that Adnan is spreading here. So I wonder Adnan is just an ordinary pakistan with the same feeling. Coming back to the recent mumbai attacks, after so much of evidence they are accusing that there is no evidence and it is India's game. I saw some provocative comments like India would have deployed these terrorists assuring that they wont be killed. They also took over the issue of sacred thread found in the hand of the arrested terrorist Amir Qasab . The thread could give an impression that he is a hindu if he had not been captured. India had not blamed pakistan government. It is evident that there are militant camps happening inside pakistan and they are getting huge fund to build up a virtual army. It is better for people of other region who hate India or Indians to look at themselves and join with India to eradicate these groups otherwise no doubt they will themselves be succumbed to destruction.
modified on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 2:23 AM
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I didn't expect to see my name here :) But I more or less ignore that asshat these days, and I am happier :)
Cheers, Vıkram.
Stand up to be seen. Speak up to be heard. Shut up to be appreciated.
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At least in Israel, most bombers have not been from the lower, uneducated, poor classes. Those people are put down and believe it. It is the more intellectually exposed and better nourished people who can see past their current position, and who believe they can make a difference, who are likely to act.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
Yes, but in Israel, most Palestinians are destitute and they git kicked when their down. A farmer working a relatively small plot of land doesn't have money that would go very far in a modern economy. Israel is an extremely expensive place to live in by their standards, now imagine when the IDF comes along and takes their land or destroys his farm with a bulldozer? Why? This is the injustice part that I mentioned in my earlier post, its not just poverty. But the whole Israel/Palestine issue is twisted beyond anything after 60 years of hate and grudges, atrocities have been committed by both sides and nothing sanctions that. But sadly, its being justified by both sides through anger and perceived righteousness.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
You're a perfect example of a recruiter if you were a religious leader. Extremely short sighted and slightly more intelligent than the average bear, so you'd be able to convince some of the young'uns. Fundamentalism is certainly an engine that's running terrorism, but its not the primary cause. Come live in this part of the world, learn a new meaning of poor and then judge, if any human has the right to judge.
The people where you live are not one bit more poor than are the people of India, or the people of Mexico or the people of any number of other places. The only real difference is that those other people are generally not culturally predisposed to be complete assholes. The enire argument about 'increasing recruitment' would be true regardless of what we do. The notion that we would reduce recruitment by rewarding the terrorism with some kind of monetary payment of some kind is laughable. We would get more of it. We have tried everything possible and recruitment continues to increase. If this is really a war against capitalism, why don't you just say so?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
India yes, Mexico no. Mexico, on the whole is better off than most Arab nations when it comes to wealth.
Stan Shannon wrote:
The notion that we would reduce recruitment by rewarding the terrorism with some kind of monetary payment of some kind is laughable.
Who the hell implied that? What burnt out neuron in your sick, twisted, demented, fundamentalist, hardliner mind whispered in your ear to say that? I said solve the poverty issue, give the people food, better yet, help them buy food by giving them decent paying jobs.
Stan Shannon wrote:
We have tried everything possible and recruitment continues to increase.
No, the world has tried the same tactic again and again only by using differing amounts of force. From a gun, escalated to a SWAT team, then to carpet bombing. That just creates greater hate that is easily directed towards a very obvious cause.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If this is really a war against capitalism, why don't you just say so?
This has to be the crown jewel in your laughable claims. Capitalism is prized in the East. If you can't think of a proper logical reason, why don't you just say so? Certainly much better than thrashing around.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
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Christian Graus wrote:
withdrawing us support for Israel until they stop oppressing their neighbours would be a place to start
OK, what is Israel doing to oppress their neighbors? You have an argument for them oppressing 'palestinian' Arabs inside the 67 borders, or maybe even those Arabs who are being held in internment camps by the Syrian, Jordanian and Lebanese governments (and the UN). But how are Egyptians being oppressed by the Israelis? The Egyptian government, yes, but how by the Israelis? Or, for that matter, what about the Lebanese, Syrians or Jordanians (you know, the country most of Palestine belonged to before Israel took it over)? It looks like most of the oppression is being done by their own governments, who are using Israel as an excuse to do the oppression.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
RichardM1 wrote:
Jordanians (you know, the country most of Palestine belonged to before Israel took it over)
Where the hell did you get that idea from? Yes, the so called camps you talk about which are mentioned in the news are actually sprawling "cities" and not something rigged up in tents. You cannot compare this injustice with whats being meted out by the Israeli governemt/army to the Palestinians, particularly in the Gaza strip and the West Bank. How is destroying farmland, or bringing down a house atop the resident's roofs justice? How is being incarcerated for an indefinite period of time for no stated reason? How's having the shit being beaten out of you nearly every day for no obvious reason while in jail? How is fighting a tank with stones a crime punishable by death? Explain these to me: Clickety[^] and Clickety 2[^] and Clickety 3[^] Explain the hatred that existed during the time of the Haganah, when atrocities such as shooting a pregnant woman, making bets on whether the fetus inside is male or female and then ripping her corpse (sometimes, she's kept alive) to see who wins the bet? Explain why many IDF personnel would actively stop an ambulance from reaching a victim so that no medical aid may be provided? Why is the aid ship that was coming to Gaza these past few days turned back? Like I said, there's a lot of hate going on there and there's a ton of injustice from the Israeli side. That's not to say that a fraction of what you're saying is true about the way neighboring countries are dealing with Palestinian refugees, but your claim that most of Palestine was a part of Jordan before it was taken over, that is just laughable. I'd love to see citations regarding that one.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Fo
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IMHO. Terrorism - no simple answer. To defeat terrorism, you have to correctly identify each brand of terrorism and establish to the best of your abilities the reason for that brand of terrorism. Once you have that basic information, then, you can prepare to address the reasons for the terrorism. You don't bomb, bomb and bomb these terrorists just because of the heat of the moment, you need a proper series (or sequence) of actions, perhaps escalating, to defeat these terrorists based upon your perceived understanding of the basic issues. When you fully have this information, you are better placed to defeat that brand of terrorism, irrespective if it is home-brewed, by proxy, or some international terrorism. Some terrorism is directed directly at you. Other terrorism is directed at a.n.other via you (by proxy). If poverty is a reason, remember there is a vast difference between financial poverty, political poverty, social poverty, and not to forget another brand of terrorism, namely, religion authorized terror tactics, and each needs a different approach to solving the problem(s). One size (solution) does not fit all. Terrorism that is a grievance against a.n.other is perhaps both political and social and may indeed become religious when other kinds fail. A casing point is the plight of the Palestinians. An argument for their brands of terrorism is their distrust of all things Jewish as portrayed by the State of Israel, and by proxy, the United States of America. This can be answered by the resolutions at the United Nations that involve Israel and Palestine but such resolutions have been vetoed by the United States, thus, the problems do not get addressed and consequently grievances grow and grow until such time that terrorism is perceived as the only viable method to make the world sit up and take notice. Yes, Palestine has at least 2 factions, one of which is Al Fatah, and in recent times, have been the desiring peace whereas, Hamas, is located in the Gaza Strip and is hard-lined and not wishing peace until Israel is wiped off the map. So, two different types of Palestinians. You could negotiate with one but never the other. This has to be addressed. How you address it remains largely a mystery. But if you attempt to have a greater understanding, you may in fact find a probable solution. But it takes time and commitment yet bombing or bulldozing peoples houses does not help the situation. Having said that, terrorism should always be condemned wherever it occurs. But trying to understand the cause(s) will help
Excellently put
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
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Given Al Qaeda's stated objectives, it is at least likely that the destruction of either Islam or Judeo-Christian faiths (and the subjugation of all others) is the only ultimate solution. To say this is not about Islam is just to ignore what the primary ideological leaders of Al Qaeda (which include Bin Laden and Al Zawahiri) are telling us in no uncertain terms. They see Islam as more than just a religion but as an all inclusive way of life that includes law and governance. The western concept of a secular government is anathema to them. It is their stated goal to expel all western influence from muslim lands, and re-establish the Ummah, a single islamic nation under sharia law. This includes the destruction of Israel. It could be an "us or them" choice, because the will brook nothing less. Ignoring the central role of Islam in this is foolhardy, for it is likely that only Muslims can prevent this by expunging the radical elements, and only if they develop a will to do so that is not presently evident. Failing that, Stan's approach may be the only course remaining, and it is uncertain which culture will prevail if things continue as they are. This is not to say all Muslims believe in or support this, but certainly the extremists in the various terrorist movements do, as do all too many others with great influence in the Islamic community. Unchecked, extremists on one side or the other will prevail.
The overwhelming majority of the fundamentalist hardliners are these guys: Clickety[^] and in another thread, I mentioned "proper Islam". The whole of the Muslim world rejects these assholes as Muslims. I'm with you that these guys need elimination, whether through termination or through incarceration that one is up for grabs, because you don't want to make "martyrs" out of these guys.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
All countries fight for their interests using whatever means possible. The total number of Muslim fundamentalists compared to those that aren't is astronomically small.
That cannot possibly be true. If it were, there would be no difficulty for muslim countries to control them.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
The number of poor compared to filthy rich princes and oil sheiks is astronomically high.
No more than it is in dozens of other societies which do not produce such horrific terrorism.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Poverty, combined with no education, hunger, and mental instability caused by years of oppression and depression can cause people to do crazy things.
Especially if their society raises them to be insane in the first place.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
What the f*** is wrong with sharing and working to better all of mankind?
Because some centralized authority has to be given the power to define and enforce what 'better' means.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Hey Stan, I just wanted to apologize for being rude to you in the Darwinism thread. Inasmuch as I disagree with you on certain issues, you didn't deserve my insults and I'm terribly sorry for that. I should have kept my composure and I feel rather bad that I didn't. I don't normally resort to that kind of behaviour.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
That cannot possibly be true. If it were, there would be no difficulty for muslim countries to control them
Which is, of course, why we aren't worried about Muslim extremists entering the U.S. and doing us damage. There are so few of them and so many of us that we would control them seconds after they showed up. Only in countries where they are encouraged to walk down the street wearing signs that say, "I am a terrorist," while firing their rifles in the air and drooling spittle out of their mouths, could a terrorist possibly not be controlled. Any efforts at concealment by terrorists are always unsuccesful because of Uncle Stan's terrost-finder - available to all non-Marxist governments for ten cents and two wheaties boxtops.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Save it Jon, he's beyond our help now, scorn and wit are useless on his thick rhino hide...
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
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Christian Graus wrote:
Well, withdrawing us support for Israel until they stop oppressing their neighbours would be a place to start. But, I was not suggesting that it's your fault personally, or that there's much you can hope to do.
I might agree with that, but only after the Palistinians agreed to and carried through on a promise of no terrorism against Israel for a period of at least 10 years. If they can prove they have the ability to control their terrorists, which would remove Israel's need to oppress anyone, than you might have an argument.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
'We've stood by and watched you get pushed down for a long time, put up with it for another 10 years, and we'll stop' ? Wow.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
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Coming from a region thats blamed continuously for terrorism, I know exactly how you feel. Its terrible when a few aberrants tar the rest. One thing I'll tell you, there are two main causes of terrorism. Injustice and poverty. These two have people running, looking for spiritual advice. Sadly, instead of promoting tolerance and harmony like every religion does, these so called religious leaders start the process of brain washing and lure many a young and susceptible person into their ranks. Of course, these are not the only causes but in this part of the world (developing) its the primal pair. State sanctioned terrorism has a political agenda behind it, if only to undermine the power and stability of neighbors and enemies even in peace time. Some do it as a show of strength. Ultimately, its hateful. If you find an answer, tell me, I'd love to help put it into effect here locally and globally.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I know exactly how you feel. Its terrible when a few aberrants tar the rest.
Talk about being an Indian programmer. :)
It is a crappy thing, but it's life -^ Carlo Pallini
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MrPlankton wrote:
Terrorism is a euphemism
To be a little more precise: Terrorism means activities against persons, organizations or property of any nature committed by an individual or individuals acting on behalf of any foreign person or foreign interest (i.e. PETA is not a terrorist organization; but Greenpeace may be): 1. that involve the following or preparation for the following: a. use or threat of force or violence; or b. commission or threat of a dangerous act; or c. commission or threat of an act that interferes with or disrupts an electronic communication, information, or mechanical system; and 2. when at least one of the following applies: a. the effect is to intimidate or coerce a government or the civilian population or any segment thereof, or to disrupt any segment of the economy; or b. it appears that the intent is to intimidate or coerce a government, or further political, ideological, religious, social or economic objectives or to express (or express opposition to) a philosophy or ideology, if 3. The foreign interests are not in a declared state of war with the target government or civilian population. (i.e. the French Resistance and the Viet Cong were not terrorists, even though their methods were remarkably similar to that of terrorists.)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified on Monday, December 1, 2008 3:46 PM