Another party organ goes into the crapper
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MrPlankton wrote:
After the auto union bailout
Why do you characterize it as a Union bailout?
This statement is false
Synaptrik wrote:
Why do you characterize it as a Union bailout?
because all of the discussion has been on controlling the companies: compensation of execs, "gotta go green", etc. - nothing is on th e table about the crippling union agreements: close a plant, pay the workers for 4 years, etc.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
modified on Tuesday, December 9, 2008 12:02 PM
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MrPlankton wrote:
I am somewhat suprised though that it's the New York Times, and LA Times(Chicago Tribune) that are failing before the rest of the pack. They are often quoted papers, held in high regard by "some". They have web based news outlets that should be able to take up the slack, one would think.
I think they suffer because they're bigger. Since they have larger distribution, decreased revenue affects them disproportionately more - employees to pay, printing presses to run, transport costs, etc... The big ones always fall first. Then it trickles down. Print media has been a losing business for some years now. The online business is not much of a revenue generator - I can read the important articles of the NY Times online for free. So they probably depend on advertising, but that obviously isn't enough to keep them afloat. I wonder if they'll start charging for full article access?
73Zeppelin wrote:
I think they suffer because
their opinion pages feed their news pages, causing a loss of subscribers. lose subscribers and the advetising rates you can chrage go down. plus, general suckiness of the economy
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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MrPlankton wrote:
I am somewhat suprised though that it's the New York Times, and LA Times(Chicago Tribune) that are failing before the rest of the pack. They are often quoted papers, held in high regard by "some". They have web based news outlets that should be able to take up the slack, one would think.
I think they suffer because they're bigger. Since they have larger distribution, decreased revenue affects them disproportionately more - employees to pay, printing presses to run, transport costs, etc... The big ones always fall first. Then it trickles down. Print media has been a losing business for some years now. The online business is not much of a revenue generator - I can read the important articles of the NY Times online for free. So they probably depend on advertising, but that obviously isn't enough to keep them afloat. I wonder if they'll start charging for full article access?
73Zeppelin wrote:
I can read the important articles of the NY Times online for free. So they probably depend on advertising, but that obviously isn't enough to keep them afloat.
It's never been more than a pittance for any papers. IIRC they've never managed to do much more than pay for hosting. And online hammers the big papers more, outside of Podunk noone ever visits PodunkTimes.com afterall.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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MrPlankton wrote:
After the auto union bailout
Why do you characterize it as a Union bailout?
This statement is false
Synaptrik wrote:
Why do you characterize it as a Union bailout?
If they were allowed to reorganize after filing for bankruptcy (chapters 7 or 11) then they could change there business model which includes jettisoning allot of union benefits and retirement plans, Moving operations to Alabama and other southern states, down sizing and outsourcing many of their operations including parts manufacture (unionized). This was politically brokered in my opinion to avoid a reorganization which would only negatively affect the unions.
MrPlankton
(bad guy)"Fear is a hammer, and when the people are beaten finally to the conviction that their existence hangs by a frayed thread, they will be led where they need to go."
(good guy)"Which is where?"
(bad guy)"To a responsible future in a properly managed world."
Dean Koontz, The Good Guy -
Synaptrik wrote:
Why do you characterize it as a Union bailout?
If they were allowed to reorganize after filing for bankruptcy (chapters 7 or 11) then they could change there business model which includes jettisoning allot of union benefits and retirement plans, Moving operations to Alabama and other southern states, down sizing and outsourcing many of their operations including parts manufacture (unionized). This was politically brokered in my opinion to avoid a reorganization which would only negatively affect the unions.
MrPlankton
(bad guy)"Fear is a hammer, and when the people are beaten finally to the conviction that their existence hangs by a frayed thread, they will be led where they need to go."
(good guy)"Which is where?"
(bad guy)"To a responsible future in a properly managed world."
Dean Koontz, The Good GuyMrPlankton wrote:
This was politically brokered in my opinion to avoid a reorganization which would only negatively affect the unions.
no question. political pay back for union support in the last election cycle.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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MrPlankton wrote:
I am somewhat suprised though that it's the New York Times, and LA Times(Chicago Tribune) that are failing before the rest of the pack. They are often quoted papers, held in high regard by "some". They have web based news outlets that should be able to take up the slack, one would think.
I think they suffer because they're bigger. Since they have larger distribution, decreased revenue affects them disproportionately more - employees to pay, printing presses to run, transport costs, etc... The big ones always fall first. Then it trickles down. Print media has been a losing business for some years now. The online business is not much of a revenue generator - I can read the important articles of the NY Times online for free. So they probably depend on advertising, but that obviously isn't enough to keep them afloat. I wonder if they'll start charging for full article access?
Fox news seems to be holding it's own. Talk radio (opinion news) has maintained or slightly increased market share but not earnings, from what I understand, and of course niche 'news' or link sites like drudge seem to be doing ok. On the other hand I have not heard anything about CNN. I wonder how codeproject income from it's ad's are doing in this market?
MrPlankton
(bad guy)"Fear is a hammer, and when the people are beaten finally to the conviction that their existence hangs by a frayed thread, they will be led where they need to go."
(good guy)"Which is where?"
(bad guy)"To a responsible future in a properly managed world."
Dean Koontz, The Good Guy -
This really doesn't surprise me. Print newspapers have been losing money for years. The current downturn is just putting those already in distress over the edge. I expect many newsprint media companies to suffer financially over the next year.
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click[^] After the auto union bailout when is congress going to sure up it's 5th column? :laugh:
MrPlankton
(bad guy)"Fear is a hammer, and when the people are beaten finally to the conviction that their existence hangs by a frayed thread, they will be led where they need to go."
(good guy)"Which is where?"
(bad guy)"To a responsible future in a properly managed world."
Dean Koontz, The Good GuyMrPlankton wrote:
After the auto union bailout
A couple of weeks ago I would have agreed with you, but I've done enough research to discover that the unions have done more to save the big three than the entire senior management at GM which was able to report on 26 perfect quarters, thus enabling bonuses the like if which I have trouble imagining, followed by 2 quarters that force them into bankruptcy. It may be Union jobs that are being saved, but they are the guys who drilled holes in the GM boat and necessitated a bail out.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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MrPlankton wrote:
After the auto union bailout
A couple of weeks ago I would have agreed with you, but I've done enough research to discover that the unions have done more to save the big three than the entire senior management at GM which was able to report on 26 perfect quarters, thus enabling bonuses the like if which I have trouble imagining, followed by 2 quarters that force them into bankruptcy. It may be Union jobs that are being saved, but they are the guys who drilled holes in the GM boat and necessitated a bail out.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
but I've done enough research to discover that the unions have done more to save the big three than the entire senior management at GM
what did your research show?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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MrPlankton wrote:
I am somewhat suprised though that it's the New York Times, and LA Times(Chicago Tribune) that are failing before the rest of the pack. They are often quoted papers, held in high regard by "some". They have web based news outlets that should be able to take up the slack, one would think.
I think they suffer because they're bigger. Since they have larger distribution, decreased revenue affects them disproportionately more - employees to pay, printing presses to run, transport costs, etc... The big ones always fall first. Then it trickles down. Print media has been a losing business for some years now. The online business is not much of a revenue generator - I can read the important articles of the NY Times online for free. So they probably depend on advertising, but that obviously isn't enough to keep them afloat. I wonder if they'll start charging for full article access?
Smaller ones have local news which can be hard to find else where if you live in a small town. It's also good for small local businesses to advertise in since it is cheaper than TV.
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Oakman wrote:
but I've done enough research to discover that the unions have done more to save the big three than the entire senior management at GM
what did your research show?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
what did your research show?
The two tier wage system (new workers get $14 @ hour to start - so do non assembly line workers) will bring labor costs down to the same or a lower level than that of Honda, Toyota, etc. Once-contractual wage increases have been scrapped, meaning the average worker is making around 4K less than he expected to be making now 3 years ago. In addition they now pay a significant portion of their health insurance. The Union essentially underwrote GM's spinoff of Delphi by accepting wgae cuts from #27 to $12 @ hours again, along with startuing to pay a share of the health benefits. Two-tier systems of course reward the long-time employees so the union has bought into massive early retirement packages that get the highest priced workers out of the plants - at lower pensions than they were promised - in return for a (healthy) de-recruiting bonus. The GM Job Bank (a terrible idea) has been reduced so it covers about $3,500 workers at reduced benefits. (It's expected to go as part of the bailout, I hear. But its symbolic, like driving to Washington instead of using the corporate jet.) I am not saying, by the way, that the union couldn't do more - get rid of some of its own myriad managers for instance - but compared to senior management - especially at GM and the dealers and the suppliers who have done little or nothing to lower their demands on GM's cashflow, the union looks to be the most willing not to kill the golden goose.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
what did your research show?
The two tier wage system (new workers get $14 @ hour to start - so do non assembly line workers) will bring labor costs down to the same or a lower level than that of Honda, Toyota, etc. Once-contractual wage increases have been scrapped, meaning the average worker is making around 4K less than he expected to be making now 3 years ago. In addition they now pay a significant portion of their health insurance. The Union essentially underwrote GM's spinoff of Delphi by accepting wgae cuts from #27 to $12 @ hours again, along with startuing to pay a share of the health benefits. Two-tier systems of course reward the long-time employees so the union has bought into massive early retirement packages that get the highest priced workers out of the plants - at lower pensions than they were promised - in return for a (healthy) de-recruiting bonus. The GM Job Bank (a terrible idea) has been reduced so it covers about $3,500 workers at reduced benefits. (It's expected to go as part of the bailout, I hear. But its symbolic, like driving to Washington instead of using the corporate jet.) I am not saying, by the way, that the union couldn't do more - get rid of some of its own myriad managers for instance - but compared to senior management - especially at GM and the dealers and the suppliers who have done little or nothing to lower their demands on GM's cashflow, the union looks to be the most willing not to kill the golden goose.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Thanks for the information. A couple of comments:
Oakman wrote:
The Union essentially underwrote GM's spinoff of Delphi by accepting wgae cuts from #27 to $12 @ hours again, along with startuing to pay a share of the health benefits.
I think GM screwed the pooch on this one. They held on to the pension liability of retirees to make the spinoff more attractive - they probably had no choice, but ... fyi - Delphi was a big employer about 30 miles north of here. I play poker with some retired GM (A/K/A Delphi) folks, 2 from management and 1 production worker. Their town, Anderson Ind., is a sad place these days.
Oakman wrote:
I am not saying, by the way, that the union couldn't do more - get rid of some of its own myriad managers for instance
They need to relax the work rules a bit. Indianapolis (where I live) has a lot of GM types in neighboring towns so I get a lot of antecdoytl information. Little things like, "only an electrician can plug an electrical cord into an electric socket". Typical union stuff but rules like these can cripple a production line. ---- This situation reminds me of the steel industry. The union and US Steel (for one) killed what was once a strong US industry. The company (US Steel) did every thing it could to avoid modernizing and the union fought for and won benefits that further crippled the company. For example, my father (who operated a boring mill for most of his working life) came home after the union negotiated a new contract and explained how he was going to get a 13 week vacation every 5th year with 4 weeks in the other years. I also remember a strike in the 1950's that lasted 180 days. That one was brutal but primarily over working conditions.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Thanks for the information. A couple of comments:
Oakman wrote:
The Union essentially underwrote GM's spinoff of Delphi by accepting wgae cuts from #27 to $12 @ hours again, along with startuing to pay a share of the health benefits.
I think GM screwed the pooch on this one. They held on to the pension liability of retirees to make the spinoff more attractive - they probably had no choice, but ... fyi - Delphi was a big employer about 30 miles north of here. I play poker with some retired GM (A/K/A Delphi) folks, 2 from management and 1 production worker. Their town, Anderson Ind., is a sad place these days.
Oakman wrote:
I am not saying, by the way, that the union couldn't do more - get rid of some of its own myriad managers for instance
They need to relax the work rules a bit. Indianapolis (where I live) has a lot of GM types in neighboring towns so I get a lot of antecdoytl information. Little things like, "only an electrician can plug an electrical cord into an electric socket". Typical union stuff but rules like these can cripple a production line. ---- This situation reminds me of the steel industry. The union and US Steel (for one) killed what was once a strong US industry. The company (US Steel) did every thing it could to avoid modernizing and the union fought for and won benefits that further crippled the company. For example, my father (who operated a boring mill for most of his working life) came home after the union negotiated a new contract and explained how he was going to get a 13 week vacation every 5th year with 4 weeks in the other years. I also remember a strike in the 1950's that lasted 180 days. That one was brutal but primarily over working conditions.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
explained how he was going to get a 13 week vacation every 5th year with 4 weeks in the other years.
Sounds like a college professor getting tenure.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
That one was brutal but primarily over working conditions.
And working conditions in a steel mill could, I imagine, be brutal.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Thanks for the information. A couple of comments:
Oakman wrote:
The Union essentially underwrote GM's spinoff of Delphi by accepting wgae cuts from #27 to $12 @ hours again, along with startuing to pay a share of the health benefits.
I think GM screwed the pooch on this one. They held on to the pension liability of retirees to make the spinoff more attractive - they probably had no choice, but ... fyi - Delphi was a big employer about 30 miles north of here. I play poker with some retired GM (A/K/A Delphi) folks, 2 from management and 1 production worker. Their town, Anderson Ind., is a sad place these days.
Oakman wrote:
I am not saying, by the way, that the union couldn't do more - get rid of some of its own myriad managers for instance
They need to relax the work rules a bit. Indianapolis (where I live) has a lot of GM types in neighboring towns so I get a lot of antecdoytl information. Little things like, "only an electrician can plug an electrical cord into an electric socket". Typical union stuff but rules like these can cripple a production line. ---- This situation reminds me of the steel industry. The union and US Steel (for one) killed what was once a strong US industry. The company (US Steel) did every thing it could to avoid modernizing and the union fought for and won benefits that further crippled the company. For example, my father (who operated a boring mill for most of his working life) came home after the union negotiated a new contract and explained how he was going to get a 13 week vacation every 5th year with 4 weeks in the other years. I also remember a strike in the 1950's that lasted 180 days. That one was brutal but primarily over working conditions.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Don't forget the Marshal plan, which rebuilt the Western European steel industries at (than) state of the art levels, while doing nothing for our own. Not complaining about the Marshal Plan, just reminding you of the law of unintended consequences.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.