"They" are not like "us": the most common bias of international politics
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suhredayan wrote:
India was not much interested in US-USSR cold war,
Au contraire. It was extremely interested because it realised that it could play the US off against the USSR and vice versa. Which is what it did, quite brilliantly, until the USSR couldn't afford to play any more.
suhredayan wrote:
Because the aid figure doesn't even come near to our yearly defense (non-productive) expenditure.
If you need a 1000 rupees and you can only earn 800 rupees and someone comes along and gives you 200 rupees, then they have kept you going, even though they have only provided you with 20% of your total needs. The proper response to that is not to demand that they give you more, or deny that they never gave you anything, or to complain that they didn't give it to you in the small bills you would have preferred, but to say, 'Thank you.'
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
If you need a 1000 rupees and you can only earn 800 rupees and someone comes along and gives you 200 rupees, then they have kept you going, even though they have only provided you with 20% of your total needs. The proper response to that is not to demand that they give you more, or deny that they never gave you anything, or to complain that they didn't give it to you in the small bills you would have preferred, but to say, 'Thank you.'
If you find a poor man in need and you lend him money for interest (and hedging own currency), a better way of defining it would be, mutual help, than saying I'm helping you for nothing. If you find a human being dying starving, and you are wasting four human beings food, but choose to give your animal's food, and this poor man refuse it saying, "No thanks, I would dye starving than eating that". A better way to respond would be "I am sorry", than forcing him to eat that. (see my earlier reply) [^]
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suhredayan wrote:
Let's not talk about persons, show me a single rich country worried about this.
Why should they be? Why shouldn't they worry about their own citizens first? Indeed, don't they have a duty to focus on the health and well-being of their citizens before anything else?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Why should they be? Why shouldn't they worry about their own citizens first? Indeed, don't they have a duty to focus on the health and well-being of their citizens before anything else?
Of course you are right. But don't tell me India is going on today only because of the rich countries around the world.
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Oakman wrote:
If you need a 1000 rupees and you can only earn 800 rupees and someone comes along and gives you 200 rupees, then they have kept you going, even though they have only provided you with 20% of your total needs. The proper response to that is not to demand that they give you more, or deny that they never gave you anything, or to complain that they didn't give it to you in the small bills you would have preferred, but to say, 'Thank you.'
If you find a poor man in need and you lend him money for interest (and hedging own currency), a better way of defining it would be, mutual help, than saying I'm helping you for nothing. If you find a human being dying starving, and you are wasting four human beings food, but choose to give your animal's food, and this poor man refuse it saying, "No thanks, I would dye starving than eating that". A better way to respond would be "I am sorry", than forcing him to eat that. (see my earlier reply) [^]
suhredayan wrote:
"No thanks, I would dye starving than eating that".
That is of course, the dying man's choice, and you are absolutely right, it shouldn't be forced on him. But it is not an analog in this case. India took the aid, used it wisely, and prospered to the point where it could, if it wished, feed its own poor. (That it lets them starve is an internal matter and not one that I feel competent to judge.) Your constant attempts to evade this one basic fact are becoming ludicrous. (By the way, it's "die," even though it's "dying." "Dye" is a word, which is why I mention it. but it refers to a coloring agent or the process of using it. Just to make things more confusing, "dying" is the participial form of both verbs.)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
Why should they be? Why shouldn't they worry about their own citizens first? Indeed, don't they have a duty to focus on the health and well-being of their citizens before anything else?
Of course you are right. But don't tell me India is going on today only because of the rich countries around the world.
suhredayan wrote:
But don't tell me India is going on today only because of the rich countries around the world
India received an enormous amount of aid from the US, The western European countries, the World Bank and Russia. Without it, famine would have decimated India and it is highly unlikely that her economy would have recovered even now. Them's the facts and I'm sorry you don't like them, but it doesn't change the truth.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
Au contraire
If my memory is correct (may not be 100%), prior to the collapse of Soviet Union, a huge quantity of military hardware - eg tanks and aircraft - employed by the Indian Armed Forces were of Soviet manufacturer, with USA and UK defence industries not getting much of a look in (some was sold but in low numbers in comparison). Only since the demise of the Soviet Union have India chosen to manufacture much of its own military hardware and if I'm not mistaken, most of that is based, or should I say, improvement of, on some Soviet era stuff.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If my memory is correct (may not be 100%), prior to the collapse of Soviet Union, a huge quantity of military hardware - eg tanks and aircraft - employed by the Indian Armed Forces were of Soviet manufacturer, with USA and UK defence industries not getting much of a look in (some was sold but in low numbers in comparison).
One of the reasons she lost so badly in '65, imho.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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suhredayan wrote:
"No thanks, I would dye starving than eating that".
That is of course, the dying man's choice, and you are absolutely right, it shouldn't be forced on him. But it is not an analog in this case. India took the aid, used it wisely, and prospered to the point where it could, if it wished, feed its own poor. (That it lets them starve is an internal matter and not one that I feel competent to judge.) Your constant attempts to evade this one basic fact are becoming ludicrous. (By the way, it's "die," even though it's "dying." "Dye" is a word, which is why I mention it. but it refers to a coloring agent or the process of using it. Just to make things more confusing, "dying" is the participial form of both verbs.)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
But it is not an analog in this case.
"In 2002 and 2003, 10,000 tons of Genetically Engineered (GE) corn-soya blend from the U.S. was sent back by the government of India, despite pressure from the U.S. government" link[^]
Oakman wrote:
Your constant attempts to evade this one basic fact are becoming ludicrous.
I appreciate that US and other rich countries have always helped India.[^]
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suhredayan wrote:
But don't tell me India is going on today only because of the rich countries around the world
India received an enormous amount of aid from the US, The western European countries, the World Bank and Russia. Without it, famine would have decimated India and it is highly unlikely that her economy would have recovered even now. Them's the facts and I'm sorry you don't like them, but it doesn't change the truth.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
it is highly unlikely that her economy would have recovered even now. Them's the facts
For recovering there should have been a collapse. After the existence of India as a country there was no economic collapse to recover from (even during 1990s when most of the Asia collapsed). Poverty was always there and is there even today. The reason for US to provide aid and later stopping it has more to do with the politics. Few reasons I know has been mentioned earlier.
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Oakman wrote:
But it is not an analog in this case.
"In 2002 and 2003, 10,000 tons of Genetically Engineered (GE) corn-soya blend from the U.S. was sent back by the government of India, despite pressure from the U.S. government" link[^]
Oakman wrote:
Your constant attempts to evade this one basic fact are becoming ludicrous.
I appreciate that US and other rich countries have always helped India.[^]
suhredayan wrote:
In 2002 and 2003, 10,000 tons of Genetically Engineered (GE) corn-soya blend from the U.S. was sent back
Okay. But the food program - as you yourself noted - had been going on since the 1950's.
suhredayan wrote:
I appreciate that US and other rich countries have always helped India.[^]
That is the first time you've said that without a "but" coming immediately afterwards.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
it is highly unlikely that her economy would have recovered even now. Them's the facts
For recovering there should have been a collapse. After the existence of India as a country there was no economic collapse to recover from (even during 1990s when most of the Asia collapsed). Poverty was always there and is there even today. The reason for US to provide aid and later stopping it has more to do with the politics. Few reasons I know has been mentioned earlier.
suhredayan wrote:
For recovering there should have been a collapse
That's right there was no recovery needed, because the U.S. The Western European Nations and Russia poured in massive aid and staved off what would have otherwise been a collapse. No matter what you say, no matter how you say it, you cannot escape the truth of this statement.
suhredayan wrote:
The reason for US to provide aid and later stopping it has more to do with the politics.
And therefore the hundreds of thousands of people who didn't starve to death don't count???
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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suhredayan wrote:
In 2002 and 2003, 10,000 tons of Genetically Engineered (GE) corn-soya blend from the U.S. was sent back
Okay. But the food program - as you yourself noted - had been going on since the 1950's.
suhredayan wrote:
I appreciate that US and other rich countries have always helped India.[^]
That is the first time you've said that without a "but" coming immediately afterwards.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
That is the first time you've said that without a "but" coming immediately afterwards.
That is because you stopped mentioning US is providing aid for nothing.