Regime Change Revisited
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Ah, but Israel claims it doesn't have a nuclear arsenal :rolleyes: Seriously though, since when did ally mean following the leader while bleating like sheep? Just because France, Germany, Canada and Australia did not approve of particular US actions, whether its related to Israel in any way or not, does not make them less of allies.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Ah, but Israel claims it doesn't have a nuclear arsenal
In discussions like this, it's usually a good idea to strive for accuracy. Israel has refused to either confirm or deny whether it has nuclear weapons, or a nuclear weapons program. It is widely believed to have as many or more ready-to-go weapons than India.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Seriously though, since when did ally mean following the leader while bleating like sheep?
Neither the UK nor Israel should be (or could be by any rational human being) accused of doing this. There have been strong disagrements between both of these countries and the U.S. If you consider your canard to be talking seriously, I suggest you reconsider your choice of words.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
one can leave Gaza either into Egypt or Israel so the reality of it all residents of Gaza are captives.
So there are no tunnels?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
What extremely crude rockets and artillery they have is stuff that they built
Err, al jazeera (this morning) reported that they had iranian weaponry being smuggled in: these have a longer range and larger payloads.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
It is, under whatever light you put it, it is slaughter, nothing else
Your opinion, not mine.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Gaza has become the largest concentration camp in history
Laughable.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Their crude weaponry certainly does not have the range to reach Sderot or Ashkalon or any other Israeli town from the heart of Gaza
So where are they coming from? Oh, would it have been from the central square of gaza city this morning? (Again from the surprisingly good al jazeera tv station).
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I did. But then again, I'm not the one that blames the people (Palestinian and Israeli) I place the blame squarely upon the shoulders of the so called leaders.
a) my remarks were not pointed at you. b) The blame always lies with the leaders: as my old dad said to me: old men start the wars and young men finish them.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
But if Gazans were free to leave I can assure you that the majority of Gazans would have left it to the radicals a long time ago
Perhaps but a) I don't think Hamas would let them and b) it's not like their 'good friends', the egyptians, have opened their border in light of the humanitarian crisis. Why is no one berating them for that?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Israel is being very barbaric in the way it is handling this
Disagree: what other (sensible) choices do they have? Every time they conced anything to the Palestinians they just ask for more and there is no way in hell they will cave to violence.
digital man wrote:
Why is no one berating them for that?
Update: At least in Lebanon, the large Palestinian population is demonstrating outside the Egyptian embassy because Egypt is blockading the strip.
digital man wrote:
what other (sensible) choices do they have
Apparently some Muslims and the president of France believe that a sensible choice for Israel would be to allow Hamas to continue to kill Israelis and write it off as just Arabs being Arabs.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
one can leave Gaza either into Egypt or Israel so the reality of it all residents of Gaza are captives.
So there are no tunnels?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
What extremely crude rockets and artillery they have is stuff that they built
Err, al jazeera (this morning) reported that they had iranian weaponry being smuggled in: these have a longer range and larger payloads.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
It is, under whatever light you put it, it is slaughter, nothing else
Your opinion, not mine.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Gaza has become the largest concentration camp in history
Laughable.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Their crude weaponry certainly does not have the range to reach Sderot or Ashkalon or any other Israeli town from the heart of Gaza
So where are they coming from? Oh, would it have been from the central square of gaza city this morning? (Again from the surprisingly good al jazeera tv station).
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I did. But then again, I'm not the one that blames the people (Palestinian and Israeli) I place the blame squarely upon the shoulders of the so called leaders.
a) my remarks were not pointed at you. b) The blame always lies with the leaders: as my old dad said to me: old men start the wars and young men finish them.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
But if Gazans were free to leave I can assure you that the majority of Gazans would have left it to the radicals a long time ago
Perhaps but a) I don't think Hamas would let them and b) it's not like their 'good friends', the egyptians, have opened their border in light of the humanitarian crisis. Why is no one berating them for that?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Israel is being very barbaric in the way it is handling this
Disagree: what other (sensible) choices do they have? Every time they conced anything to the Palestinians they just ask for more and there is no way in hell they will cave to violence.
digital man wrote:
So there are no tunnels?
You could be a bit more realistic. In the first place, the number of tunnels that do exist is very questionable. Secondly, I really doubt such make shift tunnels are really practical for a mass evacuation.
digital man wrote:
Err, al jazeera (this morning) reported that they had iranian weaponry being smuggled in: these have a longer range and larger payloads.
In the Arab world, everything Al-Jazeera broadcasts is always placed under scrutiny. Its known not to report the complete story and in many cases words things in such a manner as to leave the reader/viewer to draw their own, often false conclusions. The only time I do believe it is when another of the Arab news networks (Such as Al-Arabiya) confirms their story. Its funded by Qatar which in turn though not too friendly with KSA is certainly no friend of Iran and if it can in any way paint Iran in a worse light, they won't miss the chance. Politics in this region are sicker than normal and that I do leave to your imagination.
digital man wrote:
Your opinion, not mine.
Mine and many others, just as you and many others are entitled to your own opinions.
digital man wrote:
Laughable.
Not at all. You tell me why you believe it is a laughable claim.
digital man wrote:
So where are they coming from? Oh, would it have been from the central square of gaza city this morning? (Again from the surprisingly good al jazeera tv station).
This would be a recent thing because Israel has been entered the Gaza strip and unfortunately, the bastards are using human shields. Let me re-iterate that not for a moment do I feel sorry for Hamas and its militants, I feel very badly for the civilians on both sides of the border.
digital man wrote:
a) my remarks were not pointed at you. b) The blame always lies with the leaders: as my old dad said to me: old men start the wars and young men finish them.
I agree completely and I might add that its the people who pay the price.
digital man wrote:
Perhaps but a) I don't think Hamas would let them and b) it's not like their 'good friends', the egyptians,
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pseudonym67 wrote:
I mean as long as we ignore the massive differences and argue that the gang of half wits with rockets that are so sophisticated they can't even deliberately target anything are a massive military force capable of actually threatening isreal
Dude, how does a person become as incredible fucking stupid as you are? It is altogether a good thing that the difference exist. The forces behind this Islamic violence are evil. The only reason they have any hope of success at all is exclusively because of the bewilderingly inexplicable level of hopeless, babbling, drooling idiocy people like you demonstrate. The Israelies are the good guys - thank God they have superior weaponry!!!!!! There is absolutely no difference what so ever in Israel defending itself today and Britain defending itself in 1940. It is the very same fight, for the very same cause you fucking dolt.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
There is absolutely no difference what so ever in Israel defending itself today and Britain defending itself in 1940.
Britain was a established sovereign country that had declared war on Germany. Germany was entitled to defend itself against the might of the British Empire. Modern Israel is an invented country, arbitrarily imposed by the UN drawing a line on the map of Palestine, and largely populated by immigrants of the Jewish faith. To some extent I can understand the UN wishing to provide a Jewish homeland (most of the Nations had turned away Jews seeking refuge from the pogroms and the holocaust, possibly this salved their collective conscience) but the acts of terrorism between Arabs and Jews in the preceding decades should have given them pause.
Bob Emmett
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digital man wrote:
So there are no tunnels?
You could be a bit more realistic. In the first place, the number of tunnels that do exist is very questionable. Secondly, I really doubt such make shift tunnels are really practical for a mass evacuation.
digital man wrote:
Err, al jazeera (this morning) reported that they had iranian weaponry being smuggled in: these have a longer range and larger payloads.
In the Arab world, everything Al-Jazeera broadcasts is always placed under scrutiny. Its known not to report the complete story and in many cases words things in such a manner as to leave the reader/viewer to draw their own, often false conclusions. The only time I do believe it is when another of the Arab news networks (Such as Al-Arabiya) confirms their story. Its funded by Qatar which in turn though not too friendly with KSA is certainly no friend of Iran and if it can in any way paint Iran in a worse light, they won't miss the chance. Politics in this region are sicker than normal and that I do leave to your imagination.
digital man wrote:
Your opinion, not mine.
Mine and many others, just as you and many others are entitled to your own opinions.
digital man wrote:
Laughable.
Not at all. You tell me why you believe it is a laughable claim.
digital man wrote:
So where are they coming from? Oh, would it have been from the central square of gaza city this morning? (Again from the surprisingly good al jazeera tv station).
This would be a recent thing because Israel has been entered the Gaza strip and unfortunately, the bastards are using human shields. Let me re-iterate that not for a moment do I feel sorry for Hamas and its militants, I feel very badly for the civilians on both sides of the border.
digital man wrote:
a) my remarks were not pointed at you. b) The blame always lies with the leaders: as my old dad said to me: old men start the wars and young men finish them.
I agree completely and I might add that its the people who pay the price.
digital man wrote:
Perhaps but a) I don't think Hamas would let them and b) it's not like their 'good friends', the egyptians,
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
You could be a bit more realistic.
as could you. If they are large enough to accommodate weaponry they are large enough to allow at least some of the children through. Tell me why Egypt won't alow this? (I know why but they are being self-serving pussies showing the same contempt for the palestinians as all of the arab world does).
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73Zeppelin wrote:
Good point, but I think the difference is that both the Germans and the Japanese were ruled by (basically) dictatorships. The Palestinians have no clear leadership.
They did have at one point. Had Yasser Arafat been half the administrator that he was a tactician, Hamas would never have broken away.
73Zeppelin wrote:
I don't know about Japan, but the Nazi legacy still lives on.
There are die-hards in Japan. There are even Manga series out set in an alternative timeline where Japan won WWII. But there are die-hards here in South Carolina who are sure the South will rise again - and then there's Stan. He, too, writes of an alternate timeline.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
then there's Stan. He, too, writes of an alternate timeline.
Would that be the Jeffersonian continuum?
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
You could be a bit more realistic.
as could you. If they are large enough to accommodate weaponry they are large enough to allow at least some of the children through. Tell me why Egypt won't alow this? (I know why but they are being self-serving pussies showing the same contempt for the palestinians as all of the arab world does).
You'd let off a child to strive for himself in the desert? I don't know how big those tunnels are and I seriously doubt if weapons of any sort short of hand gun are actually moved along such tunnels built and for all intents and purposes ready to be used. Rather, it makes more sense if it were broken down to smaller components. Harder to detect, easier to transport and so on.
digital man wrote:
Tell me why Egypt won't alow this? (I know why but they are being self-serving pussies showing the same contempt for the palestinians as all of the arab world does).
Oh, the Egyptians are being assholes. Real mean and sick like. The Arab world does not show contempt to the Palestinian people, it does however show extreme contempt to their militant and political groups.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Oakman wrote:
then there's Stan. He, too, writes of an alternate timeline.
Would that be the Jeffersonian continuum?
Rob Graham wrote:
Would that be the Jeffersonian continuum
Yes, in this time line, Jefferson refuses to become abassador to France, and arranges for the assasination of Madison, thus arranging to become the author of the Constitution. The most important change is that jefferson adds an Artcle Zero in which it is revealed that the Constitution may be suspended by the President with the advice and consent of anyone named Shannon.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Stan Shannon wrote:
There is absolutely no difference what so ever in Israel defending itself today and Britain defending itself in 1940.
Britain was a established sovereign country that had declared war on Germany. Germany was entitled to defend itself against the might of the British Empire. Modern Israel is an invented country, arbitrarily imposed by the UN drawing a line on the map of Palestine, and largely populated by immigrants of the Jewish faith. To some extent I can understand the UN wishing to provide a Jewish homeland (most of the Nations had turned away Jews seeking refuge from the pogroms and the holocaust, possibly this salved their collective conscience) but the acts of terrorism between Arabs and Jews in the preceding decades should have given them pause.
Bob Emmett
Are you also going to demand that the Normans go back to France and leave Britain to the Celts? Should all the Huns in Hungary head back towards Mongolia? Should Rome be given back to the Etruscans? For that matter should the larger area known as Palestine be restored to the decendants of the countries of Judea and Gallilee?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Ah, but Israel claims it doesn't have a nuclear arsenal
In discussions like this, it's usually a good idea to strive for accuracy. Israel has refused to either confirm or deny whether it has nuclear weapons, or a nuclear weapons program. It is widely believed to have as many or more ready-to-go weapons than India.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Seriously though, since when did ally mean following the leader while bleating like sheep?
Neither the UK nor Israel should be (or could be by any rational human being) accused of doing this. There have been strong disagrements between both of these countries and the U.S. If you consider your canard to be talking seriously, I suggest you reconsider your choice of words.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
In discussions like this, it's usually a good idea to strive for accuracy. Israel has refused to either confirm or deny whether it has nuclear weapons, or a nuclear weapons program. It is widely believed to have as many or more ready-to-go weapons than India.
Point made though to be completely honest, my remark was intended as a sarcastic quip.
Oakman wrote:
Neither the UK nor Israel should be (or could be by any rational human being) accused of doing this. There have been strong disagrements between both of these countries and the U.S. If you consider your canard to be talking seriously, I suggest you reconsider your choice of words.
Meh. It was what I understood from what what you had posted.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Oakman wrote:
In discussions like this, it's usually a good idea to strive for accuracy. Israel has refused to either confirm or deny whether it has nuclear weapons, or a nuclear weapons program. It is widely believed to have as many or more ready-to-go weapons than India.
Point made though to be completely honest, my remark was intended as a sarcastic quip.
Oakman wrote:
Neither the UK nor Israel should be (or could be by any rational human being) accused of doing this. There have been strong disagrements between both of these countries and the U.S. If you consider your canard to be talking seriously, I suggest you reconsider your choice of words.
Meh. It was what I understood from what what you had posted.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
It was what I understood from what what you had posted.
So you understand "faithful ally" as "bleating like a sheep?" How do you translate "faithful wife?"
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
This I won't touch with the proverbial ten foot pole. I never know who's monitoring these forums. :suss:
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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This I won't touch with the proverbial ten foot pole. I never know who's monitoring these forums. :suss:
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
This I won't touch with the proverbial ten foot pole. I never know who's monitoring these forums.
you should have never taught her any computer skills, now see what you've done!
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
This I won't touch with the proverbial ten foot pole. I never know who's monitoring these forums.
you should have never taught her any computer skills, now see what you've done!
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Oh, she already had the skills, but it gets worse. She's teaching others. :suss:
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Hamas are fanatics. They are ruthless in their control of the entire infrastructure in Gaza. They are hoodlums as suggested by Mustafa in a recent Soapbox posting [^] which is a reasonable position. But the Gazan's elected Hamas. They may not have a traditional structure of Government you find in nearly all western and non-western governments and as you say "incursion could continue on for some time" which raises the question of how much harm needs to be inflicted on ordinary Palestinian civilians before sustained shouts of "genocide" is heard worldwide. But also will this be an invite for other Arab states to get involved by committing some armed response in defence of their Arab brethren in Gaza. The Palestinians on the West Bank appear to be concerned and agitated, so the potential to widen the issue is already there. Calls for ceasefire have already been made and rejected by both sides. But there will come a time when both sides would have had enough of fighting.
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73Zeppelin wrote:
Yeah, we all know how well that worked out...
That wasn't the fault of the invasion force, but the idiots in the Bush administration. Iraq's regime change could have been accomplished long before Iran could slip enough forces into the country, if there had been an all out commitment to boots on the ground.
73Zeppelin wrote:
When a country lacks a centralized and clearly-defined leadership you get anarchy: Iraq, Palestine, etc...
Or you get Germany, and Japan. The difference, I think, is that Germany and Japan were defeated, knew they were defeated, and had no allies to send them men or machines. Whether or not we can ever reproduce those circumstances in the Middle East is, of course, debatable. But the concept that nothing is accomplished by force is given the lie by history - as the Georgians or the Tibetans (or the Uighur), if you don't believe me. ;)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Or you get Germany, and Japan.
That's because they had no resources that you required. So, having set up democratic government in each country, restored their economies, provided defence against the USSR and China, you largely left them to their own devices.
Oakman wrote:
Whether or not we can ever reproduce those circumstances in the Middle East is, of course, debatable.
All of the USA repeats to itself, 5 times a day (facing in your direction of choice), "We do not need their oil, we do not need their oil, we do not need their oil.". Once convinced of this fact, turn your incredible ingenuity (no, I am not being sarcastic) and your vast resources to providing alternatives and to re-building your technological advantage over the rest of the world. No need to secure oil supplies, so no need to interfere in their internal affairs. (As you said: it's just Muslims fighting Muslims. As Stan said: it's just Arabs fighting Arabs. With the implied/stated "Who cares?".) After a few years, the diplomatic and economic standing of the USA should have improved to what it was in the 40s and 50s. As for Israel, why does the USA involve itself? It is a UN problem, the UN set up Israel, leave it to the UN to defend. (After all, one could say: it's just Semites fighting Semites.)
Bob Emmett
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Don't forget that Israel's single biggest supporter is the US, whether its arms, money, bailouts or political pressure, even the UN, the US has used its right to Veto for Israel a great many number of times.
Of course it is. Israel in return has been a faithful ally, at least as much as the UK and certainly more than France, Germany, Australia or Canada. Can you imagine any other country in the world agreeing not to respond when Saddam Hussein bombed it with scud missiles? Can you imagine the all-out war that could have ensued, if Israel had returned fire? And remember please that the results of all out war with Israel have, as an ultimate conclusion, nuclear war.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
Or you get Germany, and Japan.
That's because they had no resources that you required. So, having set up democratic government in each country, restored their economies, provided defence against the USSR and China, you largely left them to their own devices.
Oakman wrote:
Whether or not we can ever reproduce those circumstances in the Middle East is, of course, debatable.
All of the USA repeats to itself, 5 times a day (facing in your direction of choice), "We do not need their oil, we do not need their oil, we do not need their oil.". Once convinced of this fact, turn your incredible ingenuity (no, I am not being sarcastic) and your vast resources to providing alternatives and to re-building your technological advantage over the rest of the world. No need to secure oil supplies, so no need to interfere in their internal affairs. (As you said: it's just Muslims fighting Muslims. As Stan said: it's just Arabs fighting Arabs. With the implied/stated "Who cares?".) After a few years, the diplomatic and economic standing of the USA should have improved to what it was in the 40s and 50s. As for Israel, why does the USA involve itself? It is a UN problem, the UN set up Israel, leave it to the UN to defend. (After all, one could say: it's just Semites fighting Semites.)
Bob Emmett
Bob Emmett wrote:
That's because they had no resources that you required
You really don't know much about WWII, do you? Most of the stars of both the Russian and American space programs were German. Patton was diverted fron going into Berlin long before the Russians could get there so he could grab as much of the industrial and scientific real estate as possible.
Bob Emmett wrote:
As you said: it's just Muslims fighting Muslims
But I do care. I have longed believed that the U.S. would be better off focussing its attention on itself rather than trying to play world cop. (You are a perfect example of the kind of presumably educated person who blames the U.S. when it does try to make the world better and when it doesn't.) Since not trying to keep shi'a and sunni from killing each other is cheaper and saves American lives, I stongly prefer not interferring in Middle Eastern countries' death matches. However, I'm an equal opportunity ignorer. It doesn't matter whether they're just arabs, or just europeans, or just asians, they shouldn't be the U.S's problem.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
a faithful ally, at least as much as the UK
Well, neither of us has any other alternative. Britain wants an 'independent' nuclear deterrent. Israel wants continued existence. Your wish is our command!
Bob Emmett
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Are you also going to demand that the Normans go back to France and leave Britain to the Celts? Should all the Huns in Hungary head back towards Mongolia? Should Rome be given back to the Etruscans? For that matter should the larger area known as Palestine be restored to the decendants of the countries of Judea and Gallilee?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
I am not suggesting that Israelis be moved anywhere, only suggesting that the UN pencil could be inverted and the arbitrary line (drawn within living memory - unlike your examples) erased.
Oakman wrote:
demand that the Normans go back to France
No, Scandinavia.
Oakman wrote:
leave Britain to the Celts
Certainly not! The Celts would be sent packing to the Iberian peninsular. Picts rule, OK!
Bob Emmett