A question of moral responsibility
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Tokyo bombing killed more civilians than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but Japan did not capitulate. Dresden bombing killed over 100,000, but it did not shorten war of one single day. The Luftwaffe bombed London, but UK did not capitulate. Alled bombings killed around 1,000,000 german civilians, but Germany's regime did not fall. On the contrary, most attacks on civilians had the opposite effect, creating a sense of national unity.
BoneSoft wrote:
Hitler needed to be stopped one way or another, and I'm pretty sure deplomacy wouldn't have done the trick
Then why didn't the US ever declare war to Hitler?
The most wasted of all days is that on which one has not laughed Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Ka?l wrote:
Tokyo bombing killed more civilians than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but Japan did not capitulate.
Japan did capitulate. Whether one speaks Japanese or English, to assume that the atomic bombings were the only reason rather than merely the proximate cause is bad history.
Ka?l wrote:
Dresden bombing killed over 100,000, but it did not shorten war of one single day.
No-one has ever denied that Dresden had by this time become the main centre of communications for the defence of Germany on the southern half of the Eastern front. In case you aren't aware of this, destruction of command and control centers is essential to the war effort. One might maintain that helping the Russian Army was not in the long-range interests of the West, but Churchill was always blind to Stalin's true nature. But to claim that the bombing of Dresden didn't help is incorrect.
Ka?l wrote:
The Luftwaffe bombed London, but UK did not capitulate.
Because Hitler diverted his armies to fight Stalin in the east. Had he backed up the blitz with boots on the ground, the Battle of Britain might have been a very different story. Thankfully, this is merely one of a number of strategic blunders that Hitler made throughout WWII.
Ka?l wrote:
Alled bombings killed around 1,000,000 german civilians, but Germany's regime did not fall.
At 2:42 on 7 May 1945, at the SHAEF headquarters in Reims, France, the Chief-of-Staff of the German Armed Forces High Command, Colonel General Alfred Jodl, signed the German Instrument of Surrender. Hitler, of course, had been dead for a week. That was a fall if ever there was one. One of the reasons that Germany and Japan were easy to control during the occupation after their fall was that the population itself was demoralized; incapable and unwilling to harbor any insurrection. Compare that to the results of the more 'humane' approach the US took in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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I have no doubt that if India attacks Pakistan (and that's a might big if) it will get less support from the West than Israel currently does.
Cheers, Vıkram.
Stand up to be seen. Speak up to be heard. Shut up to be appreciated.
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
I have no doubt that if India attacks Pakistan (and that's a might big if) it will get less support from the West than Israel currently does.
Israel gets little support from the West. However, the US and Israel are indeed, close allies. Nonetheless, I suspect that if you had attacked right after the Mubai massacre, you would have recived much support from both the US and from Israel.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Jon, are you playing Ilion today? Question after needling question, on a very particular point. FWIW, the civilian will look upon the occupying soldier as an enemy, irrespective of whether the soldier actually kills other civilians or not. Also, I did not downvote your posts.
Cheers, Vıkram.
Stand up to be seen. Speak up to be heard. Shut up to be appreciated.
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
Jon, are you playing Ilion today?
Nope. I'm just asking uncomfortable questions. I don't necessarily have the answers, though when I hear a bullshit answer (not yours) my detector goes off.
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
Also, I did not downvote your posts.
I may be the only guy in here who balances downvotes given to the guys I am discussing things with (I don't discuss things with Ilion, of course.) I find the whole idea of downvoting in a forum like the Soap-box to be childish.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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What's your point?
MrPlankton
Multicultural Diversity Training, the new Socialist Reeducation Camp-light.
You seemed to pooh-pooh Israel's losses compared to India's but as a percentage of the population, they were considerably more. India could lose an Israel every year and their population would still grow.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
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Ka?l wrote:
Tokyo bombing killed more civilians than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but Japan did not capitulate.
Japan did capitulate. Whether one speaks Japanese or English, to assume that the atomic bombings were the only reason rather than merely the proximate cause is bad history.
Ka?l wrote:
Dresden bombing killed over 100,000, but it did not shorten war of one single day.
No-one has ever denied that Dresden had by this time become the main centre of communications for the defence of Germany on the southern half of the Eastern front. In case you aren't aware of this, destruction of command and control centers is essential to the war effort. One might maintain that helping the Russian Army was not in the long-range interests of the West, but Churchill was always blind to Stalin's true nature. But to claim that the bombing of Dresden didn't help is incorrect.
Ka?l wrote:
The Luftwaffe bombed London, but UK did not capitulate.
Because Hitler diverted his armies to fight Stalin in the east. Had he backed up the blitz with boots on the ground, the Battle of Britain might have been a very different story. Thankfully, this is merely one of a number of strategic blunders that Hitler made throughout WWII.
Ka?l wrote:
Alled bombings killed around 1,000,000 german civilians, but Germany's regime did not fall.
At 2:42 on 7 May 1945, at the SHAEF headquarters in Reims, France, the Chief-of-Staff of the German Armed Forces High Command, Colonel General Alfred Jodl, signed the German Instrument of Surrender. Hitler, of course, had been dead for a week. That was a fall if ever there was one. One of the reasons that Germany and Japan were easy to control during the occupation after their fall was that the population itself was demoralized; incapable and unwilling to harbor any insurrection. Compare that to the results of the more 'humane' approach the US took in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Whether one speaks Japanese or English, to assume that the atomic bombings were the only reason rather than merely the proximate cause is bad history.
You forget what happened August, 8 1945
Oakman wrote:
No-one has ever denied that Dresden had by this time become the main centre of communications for the defence of Germany on the southern half of the Eastern front. In case you aren't aware of this, destruction of command and control centers is essential to the war effor
BS. Dresden was a cultural landmark of little or no military significance, a "Florence on the Elbe," as it was known, and the attacks were indiscriminate area bombing and not proportional for the commensurate military gains[^]
Oakman wrote:
At 2:42 on 7 May 1945, at the SHAEF headquarters in Reims, France, the Chief-of-Staff of the German Armed Forces High Command, Colonel General Alfred Jodl, signed the German Instrument of Surrender
The Wehrmacht was militarily defeated at this time, mostly destroyed by the Red Army. There was no collapse of the German morale as it happened in 1918, the 'civilian front' was strong till April, 1945, even if all German cities, militarily significant or not were destroyed. Targetting cities was an inefficient and counterproductive war crime.
If you kill a whale, you get Greenpeace and Jacques Cousteau on your back, but wipe out sardines and you get a canning subsidy! Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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You seemed to pooh-pooh Israel's losses compared to India's but as a percentage of the population, they were considerably more. India could lose an Israel every year and their population would still grow.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
Tim Craig wrote:
You seemed to pooh-pooh Israel's losses
Sorry, didn't mean to give that impression.
MrPlankton
Multicultural Diversity Training, the new Socialist Reeducation Camp-light.
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Ka?l wrote:
Tokyo bombing killed more civilians than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but Japan did not capitulate.
Japan did capitulate. Whether one speaks Japanese or English, to assume that the atomic bombings were the only reason rather than merely the proximate cause is bad history.
Ka?l wrote:
Dresden bombing killed over 100,000, but it did not shorten war of one single day.
No-one has ever denied that Dresden had by this time become the main centre of communications for the defence of Germany on the southern half of the Eastern front. In case you aren't aware of this, destruction of command and control centers is essential to the war effort. One might maintain that helping the Russian Army was not in the long-range interests of the West, but Churchill was always blind to Stalin's true nature. But to claim that the bombing of Dresden didn't help is incorrect.
Ka?l wrote:
The Luftwaffe bombed London, but UK did not capitulate.
Because Hitler diverted his armies to fight Stalin in the east. Had he backed up the blitz with boots on the ground, the Battle of Britain might have been a very different story. Thankfully, this is merely one of a number of strategic blunders that Hitler made throughout WWII.
Ka?l wrote:
Alled bombings killed around 1,000,000 german civilians, but Germany's regime did not fall.
At 2:42 on 7 May 1945, at the SHAEF headquarters in Reims, France, the Chief-of-Staff of the German Armed Forces High Command, Colonel General Alfred Jodl, signed the German Instrument of Surrender. Hitler, of course, had been dead for a week. That was a fall if ever there was one. One of the reasons that Germany and Japan were easy to control during the occupation after their fall was that the population itself was demoralized; incapable and unwilling to harbor any insurrection. Compare that to the results of the more 'humane' approach the US took in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Thankfully, this is merely one of a number of strategic blunders that Hitler made throughout WWII.
Yep. Not ordering the total destruction of the BEF on the beaches of Dunkirk. Getting miffed by our raid on Berlin and diverting the very successful bombing of docks, factories, and airfields to the not very successful bombing of civilian targets. Then he could have got his boots on the ground with very little resistance. Winnie would have hopped across the pond and formed a Government in Exile, or become FDR's scriptwriter.
Oakman wrote:
Churchill was always blind to Stalin's true nature.
Not so sure you are right there. Anyway, weren't the raids joint USAF and RAF? Were the Yanks also blind to Stalin's true nature?
Bob Emmett
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Oakman wrote:
Whether one speaks Japanese or English, to assume that the atomic bombings were the only reason rather than merely the proximate cause is bad history.
You forget what happened August, 8 1945
Oakman wrote:
No-one has ever denied that Dresden had by this time become the main centre of communications for the defence of Germany on the southern half of the Eastern front. In case you aren't aware of this, destruction of command and control centers is essential to the war effor
BS. Dresden was a cultural landmark of little or no military significance, a "Florence on the Elbe," as it was known, and the attacks were indiscriminate area bombing and not proportional for the commensurate military gains[^]
Oakman wrote:
At 2:42 on 7 May 1945, at the SHAEF headquarters in Reims, France, the Chief-of-Staff of the German Armed Forces High Command, Colonel General Alfred Jodl, signed the German Instrument of Surrender
The Wehrmacht was militarily defeated at this time, mostly destroyed by the Red Army. There was no collapse of the German morale as it happened in 1918, the 'civilian front' was strong till April, 1945, even if all German cities, militarily significant or not were destroyed. Targetting cities was an inefficient and counterproductive war crime.
If you kill a whale, you get Greenpeace and Jacques Cousteau on your back, but wipe out sardines and you get a canning subsidy! Fold with us! ¤ flickr
You better stick to 1-voting me. When you try to debate, using wikipedia as your authoritative source, your lack of knowledge becomes embaressingly apparent.
Ka?l wrote:
You forget what happened August, 8 1945
The USSR read the handwriting on the wall. Certainly their declaration of war was another nail in Tojo's coffin, but if that's the best you've got, you've got nothing.
Ka?l wrote:
Targetting cities was an inefficient and counterproductive war crime.
Re-read what I wrote about the bombing making the civilian population unable and uninterested in revolting against the occupation. I need add nothing further to counter your unsupported and unsupportable claims. All you are really doing is displaying the typical French dislike of the Anglo-American partnership and less than secret sympathy with the NAZIs.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
Thankfully, this is merely one of a number of strategic blunders that Hitler made throughout WWII.
Yep. Not ordering the total destruction of the BEF on the beaches of Dunkirk. Getting miffed by our raid on Berlin and diverting the very successful bombing of docks, factories, and airfields to the not very successful bombing of civilian targets. Then he could have got his boots on the ground with very little resistance. Winnie would have hopped across the pond and formed a Government in Exile, or become FDR's scriptwriter.
Oakman wrote:
Churchill was always blind to Stalin's true nature.
Not so sure you are right there. Anyway, weren't the raids joint USAF and RAF? Were the Yanks also blind to Stalin's true nature?
Bob Emmett
Bob Emmett wrote:
Anyway, weren't the raids joint USAF and RAF? Were the Yanks also blind to Stalin's true nature?
Yep, but from what I've heard Winnie and Bomber Harris called the shots on this one.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Tokyo bombing killed more civilians than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but Japan did not capitulate. Dresden bombing killed over 100,000, but it did not shorten war of one single day. The Luftwaffe bombed London, but UK did not capitulate. Alled bombings killed around 1,000,000 german civilians, but Germany's regime did not fall. On the contrary, most attacks on civilians had the opposite effect, creating a sense of national unity.
BoneSoft wrote:
Hitler needed to be stopped one way or another, and I'm pretty sure deplomacy wouldn't have done the trick
Then why didn't the US ever declare war to Hitler?
The most wasted of all days is that on which one has not laughed Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Ka?l wrote:
Tokyo bombing killed more civilians than in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but Japan did not capitulate. Dresden bombing killed over 100,000, but it did not shorten war of one single day. The Luftwaffe bombed London, but UK did not capitulate. Alled bombings killed around 1,000,000 german civilians, but Germany's regime did not fall.
But after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan did. Killing 80,000 in Hiroshima in an instant, (plus 20,000 - 40,000 from after effects), and 40,000 instantly in Nagasaki (with 35,000 from after effects), along with the promise that the same could be done another day, was obviously more effective on the psyche than the relatively gradual accumulation of casualties by more conventional means. Do you want your lottery winnings in little payments over an extended period of time, or do you want a huge lump sum? Put a frog in boiling water and he jumps out, put him in warm water and raise it to a boil and you have frog soup.
Ka?l wrote:
Then why didn't the US ever declare war to Hitler?
Couldn't answer that, but if you want to quibble over that sort of protocol, there are still some Normandy vets around who would tell you an official declaration wasn't necessary. We were there and charging towards Berlin, war declaration or no.
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