This is defense? [modified]
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Near a thousand
That's the total number of casualties suffered by the Palestinians in Gaza. Should I assume therefore that there are no Hamas in the Strip? Or that the Israelis are so enamored of killing civilians that they pass up military target in order to hit schools and hospitals. And of course, we all know that Hamas never uses a school or a hospital or a mosque as a launching area, don't we?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
That's the total number of casualties suffered by the Palestinians in Gaza.
That's why I said near.
Oakman wrote:
Or that the Israelis are so enamored of killing civilians that they pass up military target in order to hit schools and hospitals.
It starting to seem like it.
Oakman wrote:
And of course, we all know that Hamas never uses a school or a hospital or a mosque as a launching area, don't we?
Hospitals no and I seriously doubt the number of reported mosques being used as launch sites. Certainly not schools and evidence of that was the apology for the mistake committed by the IDF 3 days after the school and all the civilians in it were decimated.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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The facts are these: Israel gave up land for PEACE! So Hamas takes over as the rulers of Gaza. The people (those now being killed along with Hamas) let them be the rulers. Hamas sends rockets into Israel (killing innocent people there as well). Israel determines that enough is enough and is (probably) determined to exterminate everything and everyone that has anything to do with Hamas. Those being "massacred" are the ones who allowed the seeds of this violence to grow. There is an old saying --- "You reap what you sow". The harvest is now occurring. From my perspective, the Israelis should wipe out everything and anything that has Hamas connected to it. If I were the Israeli leaders, I would also take back every square inch of Gaza that they gave up to promote "peace". Don't you think it OBVIOUS that those in Gaza DO NOT WANT PEACE???? War is hell, and bombs and rockets have no conscience. They kill if you are close to them when they go off. So if you don't want to be killed as an "innocent", then get the hell away from where Hamas is firing their damn rockets! Doesn't take a degree to figure that out! Even the stupid UN forces realized this when they allowed Hamas to fire rockets from within the UN compound! But we all know the UN forces are worthless and impotent to do anything but stand by and watch.
AF Pilot
You really don't have a clue as to what the hell is going on there do you? Are you Stan in disguise by any chance?
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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EliottA wrote:
Israel has denied the use of White Phospherous
that is immaterial, white phospherous is not banned.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
It is banned whenever there is a civilian population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_(weapon)#Arms_control_status_and_military_regulations[^] Under the Geneva Conventions, which are the statutory implementation of the customary laws of war, it is forbidden to deliberately attack civilians or bona-fide civilian structures, dwellings, and places used for civilian purposes, such as hospitals, religious structures, and schools. It therefore follows that the use of any form of weapon to deliberately attack civilians or deliberately attack unquestionably civilian targets unoccupied by military forces is a war crime, and in violation of the laws of war. Article 1 of Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons defines an incendiary weapon as 'any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target'. The same protocol also prohibits the use of incendiary weapons against civilians (already forbidden by the Geneva Conventions) or in civilian areas. This protocol is only binding upon those who have signed it; the United States, along with the other major military powers, has not signed or agreed to Protocol III and is not bound by it.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Opinion (irrespective if you agree/disagree/etc) is important, otherwise, what is the purpose of the Soapbox?
I agree, I just wanted Mustafa to realise that he did care, regardless of his vehement statement.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
but minimum force must be the preferred option.
Getting your own soldiers killed is the preferred option??? (minimum force, and higher risk for your troops are two ways of saying the same thing.)
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Like it or not, they were elected by the Palestinian peoples
I've been saying that right along. Mustafa keeps telling me that they wouldn't win a free election these days. I keep looking at all the Palestinians on the West Bank (and apparently in Lebanon, according to Hezbullah) cheering Hamas on - and I think he's wrong.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Getting your own soldiers killed is the preferred option???
That was not what I meant, or said. Taking whatever cautions are necessary, the use of force must be sufficient yet measured. If there is an excess quantity of force used, that causing unnecessary civilian casualties or causing civilian infrastructure to break-down in a wholesale danger-to-life manner, then the force used becomes unjust, uncivilized, and excessive thus the enforcer of this force must respond in a positive way to restrict or even stop such actions
Oakman wrote:
Palestinians on the West Bank
They are looking at their brethren and wondering what to do. Fatah are not allowing them to gather to voice solidarity otherwise the problems that Israel has will expand.
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Oakman wrote:
That's the total number of casualties suffered by the Palestinians in Gaza.
That's why I said near.
Oakman wrote:
Or that the Israelis are so enamored of killing civilians that they pass up military target in order to hit schools and hospitals.
It starting to seem like it.
Oakman wrote:
And of course, we all know that Hamas never uses a school or a hospital or a mosque as a launching area, don't we?
Hospitals no and I seriously doubt the number of reported mosques being used as launch sites. Certainly not schools and evidence of that was the apology for the mistake committed by the IDF 3 days after the school and all the civilians in it were decimated.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Steve_Harris wrote:
They just want them to behave in a civilised manner and to respond in a measured manner when provoked.
horseshit.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Nope, Steve has the right of it.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Having the wall there has certainly fostered a spirit of peace and conciliation between the two sides, hasn't it?
Steve_Harris wrote:
Having the wall there has certainly fostered a spirit of peace and conciliation between the two sides, hasn't it?
if you expect peace and reconciliation, please pass the dope. the wall saved lives, who gives a fuck about anything else?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I wouldn't call the death of such a high number of civilians restraint.
Are you saying that the number couldn't have been much higher, without the use of nukes, had Israel wished it to be?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Not without a serious death toll on their side as well.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Reagan Conservative wrote:
Don't you think it OBVIOUS that those in Gaza DO NOT WANT PEACE????
Those in Gaza doing this are leaders and active followers of Hamas and they are the thugs responsible as they are the ones with the policy that Israel must be wiped from the face of this earth. Ordinary people want and need a peaceful existence irrespective where they live. But when you see your close friends and relatives being harmed in the way they are, you are likely to store troubles for some future time. Ordinary peoples may indeed take a "resistance" style of approach, not necessarily that dissimilar from the resistances shown by ordinary French men and women when under WWII Nazi occupation.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Ordinary peoples may indeed take a "resistance" style of approach, not necessarily that dissimilar from the resistances shown by ordinary French men and women when under WWII Nazi occupation
So, Israel is occupying Gaza? Your analogy seems weak to me. Big difference between the iron rule of the Nazis and Israel trying to promote peace, but ending up getting stabbed in the back.
AF Pilot
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And if you think that Palestine has to learn to live with having hundreds of children massacred then so are you, but that's not what I meant: Israel and Palestine have to learn to accept and respect each others' existence.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Certainly not schools
Wake up and smell what you're shoveling. Of course they've been using Schools, and Hospitals.
How do you know that they are? Civilians said they didn't. Fine, they're co-conspirators. The UN said they didn't, hmmm a potential Hamas ally. Israel admitted that the school was a mistake because Hamas did not use it as a site :omg:. But they're all wrong. Hamas is using it as a launch site. Seriously man, let's assume it was a launch site, the moment there are dozens of civilians hiding in there and it is no longer being used as a launch site but as a sanctuary, it should not be attacked. Unless Israel is not following the Geneva protocols. Also, from the way Israel is telling it, every street corner, every cantina, every building and every civilian is a launch site or a possible terrorist.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Nope, Steve has the right of it.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Nope, Steve has the right of it.
well, no he doesn't. the entire world exhibited their opinion quite succinctly when refusing to condem homicide bombers, but bitched loudly when the wall was constructed to stop the homicide bombers. the rest of the world was silent when rockets were continually lobbed into Israel from Gaza, but now bitch when Israel tries to put a stop to it. yes there are people caught in the middle but if I lived in Israel I would my government to continue until Hamas was completely and totally exterminated.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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You really don't have a clue as to what the hell is going on there do you? Are you Stan in disguise by any chance?
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
You really don't have a clue as to what the hell is going on there do you?
yeah --- Israel is going to do what the people of Gaza (if they truly want peace) should have done long ago --- remove everything that is Hamas. What are they supposed to do in fighting back --- use water pistols? You and I both know that if an Israeli soldier (one in uniform, unlike the terrorists of Hamas), were captured, he would be skinned alive and have his throat slit, then his body would be dragged around behind a vehicle being driven by Hamas. Just wake up to the real world, will you. The ones who have control over this whole mess are THE PEOPLE OF GAZA. Do they want peace or not? Ridding themselves of the terrorists is a good start, don't you think? And no, I am not Stan. But I've lived long enough in this world to know that war is utter brutality, especially for those on the losing side. Even in the worst of wars, the civilians knew enough to TRY and get out of the way of the fighting. This is the reality of war. I never said it was nice.
AF Pilot
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EliottA wrote:
What would the US do if China was launching 20+ missiles everyday at their cities, targeting schools?
They would use precision-guided weapons to take out the launchers, taking care to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible. I don't see Israel doing that.
You twat: the Israelis use US weaponry! Besides the whole 'lets not hurt the civilians' mantra is fine when the civilians are not living on and around the site of the launchers but complete bollocks in real life. I, for one, fully back what Israel is doing and hope they finish what they started and I don't give a toss if anyone downvotes me: it won't chnage what I think.
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You really don't have a clue as to what the hell is going on there do you? Are you Stan in disguise by any chance?
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
BTW, how are YOu so sure YOU know what is really going on in Gaza. If you beleive every newsfeed that comes out of Gaza, I have some very nice land in Okeefenokee Swamp to sell you! Unless you've seen it for yourself, don't tell the rest of us what is going on in Gaza!
AF Pilot
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Well, let me tell it like this. Assuming a Terrorist group has a nuclear weapon and lets assume its of an Islamic persuasion, Sunni, Shi'ite or otherwise. They'll never launch it against Jerusalem because is contains two of the Holiest sites in Islam along with dozens of other Religious sites (Muslim, Christian and Jewish). The same goes for Israel, if they do it, they'll be hurting their people as well, their nukes are as good as non-existent, unless you're telling me that they would justify a massacre of the Israeli people as well? You're also telling me that the world would stand aside quietly if a nuclear weapon was used? Furthermore, what is actually happening is not restraint. I wouldn't call the death of such a high number of civilians restraint.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Furthermore, what is actually happening is not restraint. I wouldn't call the death of such a high number of civilians restraint.
This same, tired old argument is, well, tired. There will never be an accaptable number of casualties but this is war: right or wrong people get killed: that is the nature of the beats and, as in most wars, one side is militarily superior. Fortunately it is Israel who will do their utmost to refrain from killing for no reason. The same would not be said for the terrosist scum that is Hamas. Perhaps if the Palestinian people had stayed with Fatah rather than allowing Hamas this would not now be ahppening. As they say, you make your bed...
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Oakman wrote:
That's the total number of casualties suffered by the Palestinians in Gaza.
That's why I said near.
Oakman wrote:
Or that the Israelis are so enamored of killing civilians that they pass up military target in order to hit schools and hospitals.
It starting to seem like it.
Oakman wrote:
And of course, we all know that Hamas never uses a school or a hospital or a mosque as a launching area, don't we?
Hospitals no and I seriously doubt the number of reported mosques being used as launch sites. Certainly not schools and evidence of that was the apology for the mistake committed by the IDF 3 days after the school and all the civilians in it were decimated.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Hospitals no and I seriously doubt the number of reported mosques being used as launch sites. Certainly not schools and evidence of that was the apology for the mistake committed by the IDF 3 days after the school and all the civilians in it were decimated.
Senior Hamas officials in Gaza are hiding out in the basements of the Shifa Hospital complex in Gaza City. Ironically, the hospital had been totally rebuilt bu Israel during the occupation. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2fd_1231732332[^] Hamas firing from school (video)[^] Mortars fired from UN school (video)[^] The Associated Press cited eyewitness accounts (not Israeli) that mobile mortars had been set up near the UN school that Israel bombed, and that they ran away immediately after launch. As to mosques, there have been very few protests of the bombing of mosques (there have been 5) this time around because the Islamists know they have been found out. They have used so many Mosques in so many countries, so many times, as military bases that it has become quite apparent that many, too many, houses of worship are also houses of death and destruction. Interestingly, about a week ago, the IAF struck the Ibrahim al-Maqadma mosque in northern Gaza's Beit Lahiya. Now, who, I wonder, was Ibrahim al-Maqadma - any ideas?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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EliottA wrote:
Let's really not compare the dirty actions of these 2 peoples, you'll find they don't stack up in your favor.
If you count incidents, your right, but if you count by sheer "value" you'd be dead wrong. I could start with this and keep on going http://alcor.concordia.ca/~pal/History/Villages/drya@vil.html[^] Israel talks about Shalit (spelling?) what about the thousands of Palestinians in Israeli jails? Numbers talk in the vicinity of 11,000 with a sizable component being women.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Oakman wrote:
Getting your own soldiers killed is the preferred option???
That was not what I meant, or said. Taking whatever cautions are necessary, the use of force must be sufficient yet measured. If there is an excess quantity of force used, that causing unnecessary civilian casualties or causing civilian infrastructure to break-down in a wholesale danger-to-life manner, then the force used becomes unjust, uncivilized, and excessive thus the enforcer of this force must respond in a positive way to restrict or even stop such actions
Oakman wrote:
Palestinians on the West Bank
They are looking at their brethren and wondering what to do. Fatah are not allowing them to gather to voice solidarity otherwise the problems that Israel has will expand.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
That was not what I meant, or said
But the two things are the same. This is something Russia demonstrated that it knew when it invaded Georgia. Overwhelming force is the best way of avoid casualties on your own side. Yes, people may piss and moan - I remember doing some myself. But you soldiers survive and if you put them in harms way, you owe it to them to do everything in your power to make sure that they can make sure that it's the other poor sonsabitches who die for their country.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
force used becomes unjust, uncivilized, and excessive
War is uncivilized. Period. Death is unjust. Period. Any destruction is excessive. Period. Something I don't think that the Islamofascists get is that you better not deal in war unless you expect to face uncivilized, unjust, and as excessive-as-possible soldiers, bent on killing you as fast and efficiently as possible. One of the reasons they haven't figured it out is that they keep thinking that 'world opinion' protects them and, maybe they are not wrong. So many, many people says, "Well I don't think Hamas is in the right, but. . ." And after the but comes something that says that Israel needs to be willing to let more of its people die.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Steve_Harris wrote:
Having the wall there has certainly fostered a spirit of peace and conciliation between the two sides, hasn't it?
if you expect peace and reconciliation, please pass the dope. the wall saved lives, who gives a fuck about anything else?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
On which side? What would you call the Palestinian farmers (a majority I can assure you) who have had their livelihood taken away because of this monstrosity? They're dying now because they can't grow food or make enough money to buy it. Transport routes are non-existent so trade is non-existent as well. This applies to Muslims and Christians alike. But Mike, from the way you told it, its OK for the Israelis to live in peace and prosperity and security but its not a thing for the Palestinians.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer