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US Politics

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  • C Christian Graus

    Good point - no, no book should be banned. But, I guess I'm just a foreigner from a country where no-one would buy books to indoctrinate kids to a particular political viewpoint, although I am sure there are books that are PC in other ways that we would have.

    Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

    S Offline
    S Offline
    Stan Shannon
    wrote on last edited by
    #18

    Christian Graus wrote:

    I'm just a foreigner from a country where no-one would buy books to indoctrinate kids to a particular political viewpoint

    Thats because in your country the war is already over. The collectivist won. No indoctrination is necessary. It is still being fought here.

    Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

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    • B BoneSoft

      How about fewer idiots published?


      Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

      O Offline
      O Offline
      Oakman
      wrote on last edited by
      #19

      The first amendment was not instituted to protect the rights of people you agreed with.

      Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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      • C Christian Graus

        Maxxx_ wrote:

        erm - isn't part of letting them learn fr themselves allowing them to look at differing opinions and decide which is 'right'?

        Sure, but like the home schooled group I saw at the museum in John 3:16 t-shirts, I would suspect that most kids who get bought such a book, are not subjected to alternative viewpoints.

        Maxxx_ wrote:

        Perhaps (I have no feelings either way) " Obama is the great hope of the nation". Perhaps not. Letting your kids read a book espousing either view should be part of their education, shouldn't it?

        I agree on the first part, perhaps he is. But this seemed to me not like a setting out of facts, but the creation of a mythology.

        Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

        O Offline
        O Offline
        Oakman
        wrote on last edited by
        #20

        Christian Graus wrote:

        I would suspect that most kids who get bought such a book, are not subjected to alternative viewpoints.

        Yah think? However, one of the things my kids taught me was that parents don't have quite the final say so they it is sometimes assumed they have. And that kids may grow up to espouse very different beliefs than their parents. Nor do two kids, raised by the same parents in much the same environment, end up living the same way, or believing the same things as the other. In my personal experience, I think I taught my kids to respect truth and live their beliefs and that stuck - but neither is a libertarian of any sort. One of them is a librarian and a tree hugger and the other is what we used to call a yuppie and a financial analyst.

        Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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        • C Christian Graus

          Maxxx_ wrote:

          erm - isn't part of letting them learn fr themselves allowing them to look at differing opinions and decide which is 'right'?

          Sure, but like the home schooled group I saw at the museum in John 3:16 t-shirts, I would suspect that most kids who get bought such a book, are not subjected to alternative viewpoints.

          Maxxx_ wrote:

          Perhaps (I have no feelings either way) " Obama is the great hope of the nation". Perhaps not. Letting your kids read a book espousing either view should be part of their education, shouldn't it?

          I agree on the first part, perhaps he is. But this seemed to me not like a setting out of facts, but the creation of a mythology.

          Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

          S Offline
          S Offline
          Shepman
          wrote on last edited by
          #21

          Christian Graus wrote:

          But this seemed to me not like a setting out of facts, but the creation of a mythology.

          So are Superman comics.

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          • S Stan Shannon

            Christian Graus wrote:

            I'm just a foreigner from a country where no-one would buy books to indoctrinate kids to a particular political viewpoint

            Thats because in your country the war is already over. The collectivist won. No indoctrination is necessary. It is still being fought here.

            Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

            C Offline
            C Offline
            Christian Graus
            wrote on last edited by
            #22

            Stan Shannon wrote:

            Thats because in your country the war is already over. The collectivist won. No indoctrination is necessary. It is still being fought here.

            What BS. I said why it is, we have a freedom you will never have.

            Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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            • C Christian Graus

              Stan Shannon wrote:

              Thats because in your country the war is already over. The collectivist won. No indoctrination is necessary. It is still being fought here.

              What BS. I said why it is, we have a freedom you will never have.

              Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

              S Offline
              S Offline
              Stan Shannon
              wrote on last edited by
              #23

              You don't even know what freedom is.

              Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

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              • S Stan Shannon

                You don't even know what freedom is.

                Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

                C Offline
                C Offline
                Christian Graus
                wrote on last edited by
                #24

                ROTFL !!! In what way am I lacking in freedom ?

                Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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                • O Oakman

                  Christian Graus wrote:

                  I would suspect that most kids who get bought such a book, are not subjected to alternative viewpoints.

                  Yah think? However, one of the things my kids taught me was that parents don't have quite the final say so they it is sometimes assumed they have. And that kids may grow up to espouse very different beliefs than their parents. Nor do two kids, raised by the same parents in much the same environment, end up living the same way, or believing the same things as the other. In my personal experience, I think I taught my kids to respect truth and live their beliefs and that stuck - but neither is a libertarian of any sort. One of them is a librarian and a tree hugger and the other is what we used to call a yuppie and a financial analyst.

                  Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

                  C Offline
                  C Offline
                  Christian Graus
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #25

                  Oakman wrote:

                  And that kids may grow up to espouse very different beliefs than their parents.

                  This is always possible. but not statistically probable, or at least, so I am told.

                  Oakman wrote:

                  One of them is a librarian and a tree hugger and the other is what we used to call a yuppie and a financial analyst.

                  Wow - that's quite a mix.

                  Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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                  • C Christian Graus

                    ROTFL !!! In what way am I lacking in freedom ?

                    Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

                    S Offline
                    S Offline
                    Stan Shannon
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #26

                    Christian Graus wrote:

                    In what way am I lacking in freedom ?

                    You clearly endorse public dependency upon the state, no one can be simultaneously dependent and free.

                    Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

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                    • S Stan Shannon

                      Christian Graus wrote:

                      In what way am I lacking in freedom ?

                      You clearly endorse public dependency upon the state, no one can be simultaneously dependent and free.

                      Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

                      C Offline
                      C Offline
                      Christian Graus
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #27

                      Oh, this idiocy ?" I thought you had a real opinion. I am free of drivel like this, it doesn't occur in the public arena at home.

                      Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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                      • C Christian Graus

                        Oh, this idiocy ?" I thought you had a real opinion. I am free of drivel like this, it doesn't occur in the public arena at home.

                        Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

                        S Offline
                        S Offline
                        Stan Shannon
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #28

                        Christian Graus wrote:

                        I am free of drivel like this, it doesn't occur in the public arena at home.

                        My original point precisely.

                        Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

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                        • S Stan Shannon

                          Christian Graus wrote:

                          I am free of drivel like this, it doesn't occur in the public arena at home.

                          My original point precisely.

                          Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

                          C Offline
                          C Offline
                          Christian Graus
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #29

                          *grin* well, touche, assuming that your paranoia has some basis in fact, then we are all indeed enslaved to the idea that society should not prey on it's weakest members.

                          Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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                          • C Christian Graus

                            *grin* well, touche, assuming that your paranoia has some basis in fact, then we are all indeed enslaved to the idea that society should not prey on it's weakest members.

                            Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

                            S Offline
                            S Offline
                            Stan Shannon
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #30

                            Christian Graus wrote:

                            *grin* well, touche, assuming that your paranoia has some basis in fact, then we are all indeed enslaved to the idea that society should not prey on it's weakest members.

                            Which merely means those weakest members become little more than political chattel, rather than free, self reliant, productive individuals.

                            Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

                            C 1 Reply Last reply
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                            • S Stan Shannon

                              Christian Graus wrote:

                              *grin* well, touche, assuming that your paranoia has some basis in fact, then we are all indeed enslaved to the idea that society should not prey on it's weakest members.

                              Which merely means those weakest members become little more than political chattel, rather than free, self reliant, productive individuals.

                              Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

                              C Offline
                              C Offline
                              Christian Graus
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #31

                              we've discussed this before. The ignorance you display, the lack of ability to consider the lot of people unlike you, is quite breathtaking.

                              Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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                              • C Christian Graus

                                we've discussed this before. The ignorance you display, the lack of ability to consider the lot of people unlike you, is quite breathtaking.

                                Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

                                S Offline
                                S Offline
                                Stan Shannon
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #32

                                Christian Graus wrote:

                                The ignorance you display, the lack of ability to consider the lot of people unlike you, is quite breathtaking.

                                The ignorance is on your side. The vast majority of people are not "unlike me". You have no confidence that the common man is capable of freedom and responsibility, I do. You think you belong to some kind of exclusive elite club of capable human beings, I don't.

                                Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

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                                • S Stan Shannon

                                  Christian Graus wrote:

                                  The ignorance you display, the lack of ability to consider the lot of people unlike you, is quite breathtaking.

                                  The ignorance is on your side. The vast majority of people are not "unlike me". You have no confidence that the common man is capable of freedom and responsibility, I do. You think you belong to some kind of exclusive elite club of capable human beings, I don't.

                                  Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

                                  C Offline
                                  C Offline
                                  Christian Graus
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #33

                                  Stan Shannon wrote:

                                  You have no confidence that the common man is capable of freedom and responsibility

                                  That's not true. I don't believe that the average person is in a position of offering skilled labour to employers, in other words, in a position of power to negotiate the sort of things you take for granted as having come through your hard work. I am sure that everyone is capable of freedom, but there are plenty of people as enslaved today as if they were actually slaves, and have opportunity for advancement equally closed to them.

                                  Stan Shannon wrote:

                                  You think you belong to some kind of exclusive elite club of capable human beings, I don't.

                                  The suggestion that people work at WalMart because they are smart enough to code, but simply too lazy to bother, is not non-elitist. It's just dumb.

                                  Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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                                  • O Oakman

                                    The first amendment was not instituted to protect the rights of people you agreed with.

                                    Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

                                    B Offline
                                    B Offline
                                    BoneSoft
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #34

                                    I didn't guarantee publication either.


                                    Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • C Christian Graus

                                      Stan Shannon wrote:

                                      You have no confidence that the common man is capable of freedom and responsibility

                                      That's not true. I don't believe that the average person is in a position of offering skilled labour to employers, in other words, in a position of power to negotiate the sort of things you take for granted as having come through your hard work. I am sure that everyone is capable of freedom, but there are plenty of people as enslaved today as if they were actually slaves, and have opportunity for advancement equally closed to them.

                                      Stan Shannon wrote:

                                      You think you belong to some kind of exclusive elite club of capable human beings, I don't.

                                      The suggestion that people work at WalMart because they are smart enough to code, but simply too lazy to bother, is not non-elitist. It's just dumb.

                                      Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

                                      S Offline
                                      S Offline
                                      Stan Shannon
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #35

                                      Christian Graus wrote:

                                      I don't believe that the average person is in a position of offering skilled labour to employers, in other words, in a position of power to negotiate the sort of things you take for granted as having come through your hard work. I am sure that everyone is capable of freedom, but there are plenty of people as enslaved today as if they were actually slaves, and have opportunity for advancement equally closed to them.

                                      A situation that only becomes worse as the state interfers with economic growth by trying to artificially ameliorate economic inequities. When the economy is free to grow naturally, the opportunities for each individual to freely achieve their own level of success in their own way is optimized. A free economy is the source of all true freedom.

                                      Christian Graus wrote:

                                      The suggestion that people work at WalMart because they are smart enough to code, but simply too lazy to bother, is not non-elitist. It's just dumb.

                                      I think people work at walmart because it provides them with a standard of living with which they are comfortable, or it is a temporary necessity as they prepare themselves for a better standard of living. The suggestion that wal-mart employees are slaves it what is dumb. Slavery is not a condition of being required to perform work that might profit someone else more than it does you, it is a condition of not being allowed to take responsibility for your own welfare. When those same wal-mart employees become dependent upon the state then they are slaves, and so are those of us forced by the state to provide for them.

                                      Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

                                      C 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • S Stan Shannon

                                        Christian Graus wrote:

                                        I don't believe that the average person is in a position of offering skilled labour to employers, in other words, in a position of power to negotiate the sort of things you take for granted as having come through your hard work. I am sure that everyone is capable of freedom, but there are plenty of people as enslaved today as if they were actually slaves, and have opportunity for advancement equally closed to them.

                                        A situation that only becomes worse as the state interfers with economic growth by trying to artificially ameliorate economic inequities. When the economy is free to grow naturally, the opportunities for each individual to freely achieve their own level of success in their own way is optimized. A free economy is the source of all true freedom.

                                        Christian Graus wrote:

                                        The suggestion that people work at WalMart because they are smart enough to code, but simply too lazy to bother, is not non-elitist. It's just dumb.

                                        I think people work at walmart because it provides them with a standard of living with which they are comfortable, or it is a temporary necessity as they prepare themselves for a better standard of living. The suggestion that wal-mart employees are slaves it what is dumb. Slavery is not a condition of being required to perform work that might profit someone else more than it does you, it is a condition of not being allowed to take responsibility for your own welfare. When those same wal-mart employees become dependent upon the state then they are slaves, and so are those of us forced by the state to provide for them.

                                        Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

                                        C Offline
                                        C Offline
                                        Christian Graus
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #36

                                        Stan Shannon wrote:

                                        A situation that only becomes worse as the state interfers with economic growth by trying to artificially ameliorate economic inequities

                                        Because people get smarter through starvation ?

                                        Stan Shannon wrote:

                                        When the economy is free to grow naturally, the opportunities for each individual to freely achieve their own level of success in their own way is optimized

                                        Correct. That's my point. The dumbest, weakest people are far more likely to only reach their level of success ( starvation ), in a society that leaves them to it. And, people who through no fault of their own find themselves out of work for a period, will also find it a lot harder to rise above that 'level of success'.

                                        Stan Shannon wrote:

                                        I think people work at walmart because it provides them with a standard of living with which they are comfortable, or it is a temporary necessity as they prepare themselves for a better standard of living

                                        I think you're insane. People work at Walmart because they have to.

                                        Stan Shannon wrote:

                                        The suggestion that wal-mart employees are slaves it what is dumb

                                        Most companies like Wal mart in Australia hire only casual labour, and so workers are kept in a state of fear, because they are 'employed' ( so they can't get benefits ), but may not work for weeks at a time if they don't toe the line. No sick leave, no holidays, that's not slavery ?

                                        Stan Shannon wrote:

                                        When those same wal-mart employees become dependent upon the state then they are slaves, and so are those of us forced by the state to provide for them.

                                        The issue really here is that a free market means every man for himself, which means those on the bottom rung get taken advantage of. A person with a job should not be given hand outs, but a person who works at Walmart is not in a position of power, and it is not in Walmarts interest when they have a large labor pool to draw from, to care about it's employees. This is why laws need to exist about things like minimum wages, because if someone has zero, then they will take an amount they cannot live on, because it's better than nothing, not because they are 'comfortable' with it.

                                        Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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