A Sad Day For Free Speech In Italy
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Yeah! Of course, I probably have NO respect due to me.
OWING to me surely!
------------------------------------ "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion" Arthur C Clarke
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John Carson wrote:
Perhaps you would like to list the atheists you consider to be less rational than Fred Phelps and his happy band.
Fred Phelps is not even remotely Christian. But, FWIW, I was referring to the christians and athiests I've had personal experience with. They mostly both do the same thing - ignore everything the other person says and wait for the gap to insert what they always say to such people. Real discussion very rarely occurs. I've had many conversations where the atheist response is a response to the opposite of what I just said.
John Carson wrote:
What is the point is that you are just poking out your tongue rather than saying anything useful.
Well, it *is* useful to point out that many of the people paying for bus signs and generally looking to 'fight' for atheism, are highly irrational, even though they claim to be the voice of reason.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Christian Graus wrote:
Fred Phelps is not even remotely Christian
Your statement made no reference to Christians. You said: "No-one is more irrational than a fervent athiest, in my experience". So Fred Phelps is an atheist?
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, it *is* useful to point out that many of the people paying for bus signs and generally looking to 'fight' for atheism, are highly irrational, even though they claim to be the voice of reason.
I don't think you have any real evidence that the people paying for bus signs are "highly irrational". You are merely indulging a prejudice and, like I said, poking your tongue out. To the unprejudiced mind, it must appear rather striking that we live in a world in which proselytising on behalf of Christianity is part of the furniture, but in the UK, Italy and Australia just putting an atheist message on a bus leads to attempts to censor that message (successfully in the case of Italy and Australia). The unprejudiced mind would note that, while it is quite common for people to live their lives with little regard and little sympathy for religion, active proselytising on behalf of atheism is a very minor activity relative to proselytising on behalf of religion. Atheist messages on buses create a stir precisely because the religious have enjoyed a near-monopoly in the proselytising business for thousands of years.
John Carson
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
They'll be emotionally stunted, probably suicidal, their skeletons will be grossly deformed, but at least they'll be welcome
How is this any different from what happens to most kids now -- except for the welcomed part, of course. :confused:
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
How is this any different from what happens to most kids now -- except for the welcomed part, of course. Confused
....... I dunno. It isn't, I guess.
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Oakman wrote:
You talking about string theory?
There was a time when Einstein's General Relativity couldn't be proven as well...
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
There was a time when Einstein's General Relativity couldn't be proven as well...
Although there are an increasing number of observations that strongly support Theory of General Relativity, I am not aware that there is any consensus that says it is now proved beyond all question. Do you know differently?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Well, there hasn't been anything one could use tangible proof that there is one, and it doesn't matter which version of god you might happen to believe in)..
That wasn't my point. What one group does is going to be considered brainwashing by the other.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I don't care what religious folks do as long as they don't they to directly and overtly impact *my* life.
I don't care what athiests do as long as it doesn't impact *my* life. I guess everyone looks after their own self interest, sometimes even putting it before the interests of society as a whole. My point was that the Cardinal had the right to complain, just as you have the right to complain. The bus company had no obligation to listen.
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Me blog, You read
Gary Kirkham wrote:
My point was that the Cardinal had the right to complain, just as you have the right to complain.
I suppose he also had the right to say that all atheists should be put to death, i.e., he had the right at least in the sense that saying that probably isn't against the law. Nevertheless, such statements wouldn't reflect well on him. Neither do his actual statements. The Cardinal is simply lobbying to have an opposing viewpoint censored. As such, he is a loathsome individual.
John Carson
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
There was a time when Einstein's General Relativity couldn't be proven as well...
Although there are an increasing number of observations that strongly support Theory of General Relativity, I am not aware that there is any consensus that says it is now proved beyond all question. Do you know differently?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Although there are an increasing number of observations that strongly support Theory of General Relativity, I am not aware that there is any consensus that says it is now proved beyond all question. Do you know differently?
;P I give up.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Any form of presentation of views, for or against any viewpoint, can be called brainwashing
That is just hogwash: being able to read a variety of views or having a variety of views presented can hardly be called brainwashing whereas bringing your child up with only your point of view plainly is. (Close to child abuse).
Christian Graus wrote:
But wait, doesn't your inability to believe something imply free will
Huh? Cheeky git: I am able to believe if I so choose but common sense dictates that I shouldn't.
digital man wrote:
being able to read a variety of views or having a variety of views presented can hardly be called brainwashing
On what subjects? Human sacrifice? Necrophilia? Cannibalism? Ancestor Worship? The equality of races? Not exposing my child to views different than my own on these subjects is tantamount to child abuse?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified on Monday, January 19, 2009 11:46 AM
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John Carson wrote:
You have proof of this?
Somebody does.
John Carson wrote:
This sequence won't give you every possible string --- at least not using any standard number to letter mapping.
Some algorithm would, I...think. :~ .
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Some algorithm would, I...think.
Yeah, an "erase and rewrite the desired answer" algorithm would do the trick. That would work for the number 7 as well as it would for pi. You are now trying to cover your arse, but it is clear that you believed that pi must contain every possible number sequence and hence every possible string. That is false as a general property of irrational numbers and unproven as a property of pi.
John Carson
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Oakman wrote:
Although there are an increasing number of observations that strongly support Theory of General Relativity, I am not aware that there is any consensus that says it is now proved beyond all question. Do you know differently?
;P I give up.
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Gary Kirkham wrote:
My point was that the Cardinal had the right to complain, just as you have the right to complain.
I suppose he also had the right to say that all atheists should be put to death, i.e., he had the right at least in the sense that saying that probably isn't against the law. Nevertheless, such statements wouldn't reflect well on him. Neither do his actual statements. The Cardinal is simply lobbying to have an opposing viewpoint censored. As such, he is a loathsome individual.
John Carson
So he doesn't have the right to complain?
John Carson wrote:
Neither do his actual statements.
What were his actual statements?
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Me blog, You read
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Some algorithm would, I...think.
Yeah, an "erase and rewrite the desired answer" algorithm would do the trick. That would work for the number 7 as well as it would for pi. You are now trying to cover your arse, but it is clear that you believed that pi must contain every possible number sequence and hence every possible string. That is false as a general property of irrational numbers and unproven as a property of pi.
John Carson
OK, OK, I read a few years ago that Pi was a Normal number, but apparently that's only a conjecture that still eludes a proof. OK?
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
I give up.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Whoa, that's crazy! :omg:
modified on Monday, January 19, 2009 12:17 PM
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Fisticuffs wrote:
o imply a rational worldview (there's no good evidence for a god) is somehow equivalent to an irrational worldview (w00t god baptist anglican catholic oh my)
The fact that you misrepresent the Christian viewpoint is all that needs to be said about this.
Fisticuffs wrote:
So atheists have a ways to go to be as annoying as the f***ing Baptists, which is all still more entertaining than "Head-On" or CSI adverts.
Perhaps. But again, one has to wonder at the rationale that causes them to pay for a bus ad to say that they have nothing to say. Excepting that they want to annoy Christians, which is a right I'd defend, even though I don't understand it, and I am disappointed that anyone falls for it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
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Fisticuffs wrote:
It seems that everybody at some point pulls the "WELL SOME ATHEISTS ARE JUST AS ANNOYING AND LOUD AS CHRISTIANS" shtick out
Everybody? :confused: That's a level of paranoia that only a few folks reach. (Stan with "everybody is a Marxist" comes to mind.)
Fisticuffs wrote:
because *gasp*
hmmmm, where have I seen that punctuation before. . .
Fisticuffs wrote:
both have stupid loud people yelling
And you used all caps in a couple of places. . .
Fisticuffs wrote:
Number of signs posted around the countryside suggesting I'm either going to hell or that I'll never reach spiritual or personal fulfillment without accepting Jesus Christ as my personal savior: 10,000 or so
To coin a phrase: is your faith so weak that you are afraid you may start doubting because of the signs?
Fisticuffs wrote:
Number of signs on the side of a bus suggesting I probably won't: 1-2
And how many times, do you think, that atheists have spent a goodly chunk of change to go to court to eliminate creches from a downtown park? Personally, I am not threatened by the signs of either sort, I can see all the creches I need to see on the front lawns of churches and, yeah, I really wish that both sides would stop yelling.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified on Monday, January 19, 2009 11:43 AM
Oakman wrote:
To coin a phrase: is your faith so weak that you are afraid you may start doubting because of the signs?
Faith is belief without evidence. I have no "faith." I have reasonable assertions about the world around me.
Oakman wrote:
And you used all caps in a couple of places. . .
Yeah, well, he got those from me; I profoundly apologize. Seriously, if your whole argument is to try to discredit me on the basis that my typing style mildly resembles Ilion's and is somewhat hyperbolic (tee hee), then have at it. You go, girl.
- F
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So he doesn't have the right to complain?
John Carson wrote:
Neither do his actual statements.
What were his actual statements?
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Me blog, You read
Gary Kirkham wrote:
So he doesn't have the right to complain?
He has the legal right, but he is behaving badly if he exercises it. I don't have any problem with him restating his belief in God or attempting to persuade others of the correctness of that belief. I have a huge problem with him attempting to deny atheists outlets for the expression of their views.
Gary Kirkham wrote:
What were his actual statements?
See the link in the original post. He got his officials to write to the bus company saying they shouldn't carry the messages.
John Carson
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Dalek Dave wrote:
Let people be brainswashed into following a fundemental faith
Yes, let us brainwash them into believing there is no God.
Dalek Dave wrote:
answers that religion cannot provide
Or it provides answers you are not willing to accept. There are all sorts of groups that have their own agenda, who seek to affect public policy according to their bias. Are you prepared to deny the Cardinal the right to protest a company's decision simply because you don't agree with him?
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Me blog, You read
Gary Kirkham wrote:
Yes, let us brainwash them into believing there is no God.
Rubbish, if one is free to say there is a God, one should also be free to say there is a different God, a lot of other Gods, or there is no God.
Cheers, Vıkram.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it.
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
Religion and mythology once had a role to play. That role became obsolete a long time ago.
I think the more cold and lonely and hopeless science reveals the universe to actually be, the more attractive and important all that religion and mythology will once again become. Of what possible use is knowledge of a universe that is without purpose or meaning? If that is the case, than shit, just make up something that sounds good and go with that.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Fisticuffs wrote:
It seems that everybody at some point pulls the "WELL SOME ATHEISTS ARE JUST AS ANNOYING AND LOUD AS CHRISTIANS" shtick out
Everybody? :confused: That's a level of paranoia that only a few folks reach. (Stan with "everybody is a Marxist" comes to mind.)
Fisticuffs wrote:
because *gasp*
hmmmm, where have I seen that punctuation before. . .
Fisticuffs wrote:
both have stupid loud people yelling
And you used all caps in a couple of places. . .
Fisticuffs wrote:
Number of signs posted around the countryside suggesting I'm either going to hell or that I'll never reach spiritual or personal fulfillment without accepting Jesus Christ as my personal savior: 10,000 or so
To coin a phrase: is your faith so weak that you are afraid you may start doubting because of the signs?
Fisticuffs wrote:
Number of signs on the side of a bus suggesting I probably won't: 1-2
And how many times, do you think, that atheists have spent a goodly chunk of change to go to court to eliminate creches from a downtown park? Personally, I am not threatened by the signs of either sort, I can see all the creches I need to see on the front lawns of churches and, yeah, I really wish that both sides would stop yelling.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified on Monday, January 19, 2009 11:43 AM
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Gary Kirkham wrote:
So he doesn't have the right to complain?
He has the legal right, but he is behaving badly if he exercises it. I don't have any problem with him restating his belief in God or attempting to persuade others of the correctness of that belief. I have a huge problem with him attempting to deny atheists outlets for the expression of their views.
Gary Kirkham wrote:
What were his actual statements?
See the link in the original post. He got his officials to write to the bus company saying they shouldn't carry the messages.
John Carson
John Carson wrote:
I have a huge problem with him attempting to deny atheists outlets for the expression of their views.
But yet there are athiests who seek to deny the same to the religious. Do you support them?
John Carson wrote:
See the link in the original post.
I read the linked article, yet I find no actual statements made by the Cardinal in the piece. So I have no idea how they reflect on him...neither do you.
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Me blog, You read
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Gary Kirkham wrote:
Yes, let us brainwash them into believing there is no God.
Rubbish, if one is free to say there is a God, one should also be free to say there is a different God, a lot of other Gods, or there is no God.
Cheers, Vıkram.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it.
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Me blog, You read