The U.S. lost 50,000 jobs yesterday [modified]
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Not to be too picky, but:
Oakman wrote:
But is that a surprise, when our government has been outsourcing millions of jobs for the past twenty years?
so, which positions were outsourced? State Department? Defense? I think you mean the Fed permitted private industry to ship jobs overseas, don't you? If so why shouldn't a business employ the lowest cost resource to build / support its products?
Oakman wrote:
when companies are allowed to outsouce entire departments to folks who then post "PLZ HLP!"
wow, so you do support the South American (Chavez, Morales) approach. I'd be fine with a criticism of private industry for not employing citizens but to say that the government "allowed" them is frankly repulsive. In the current environment we do not need protectionist policies, unless we want a repeat of he Great Depression.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
We don't need protectionism, but we also don't need the federal goverment subsidizing the importation of cheap competition for US jobs by means of a special Visa program whose rules they are not willing or able to enforce. H1B is an egregious affront, and should be stopped immediately. It is not properly enforced, and has become nothing more than a back door for importing foreign skilled labor at the expense of US citizens. The myth that there aren't enough skilled US professionals to satisfy demand is nothing more than a lie. What is meant is there aren't enough at an entry level or lower salary. It is fast becoming a self fulfilling prophecy, however, as students observe what happens to parents and older friends and seek other professions where longevity is better.
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Oakman wrote:
nurses
There is a big shortfall of nurses in the US. It still is so I think H1Bs are justified in some respects. I would agree with you on the IT jobs. It used to be that only good candidates got H1B sponsored. But these days it has become a scam (atleast in India), so some unqualified candidates with money and influence get H1B sponsored by a company. What's sad is that some really well qualified candidates can't get a job because their H1B can not not be processed. Many of the contracting companies (bulk of H1B) do keep a significant amount of cut as a result the salaries for the employees are less.
I've worked with 3 different Indian outsource companies in the past few years. I found it interesting that virtually none of them had IT degrees, most came from unrelated fields. Their senior developers were competent, but most of their underlings were not so much. Which was explained by the fact that so many were starting a new career for which they weren't trained. There were a lot of engineers from varying fields, so they were bright guys, they were just starting out in a field that was pretty new to them. I assumed with the IT boom there, it had just become much easier to get a programming job.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Many of the contracting companies (bulk of H1B) do keep a significant amount of cut as a result the salaries for the employees are less.
I've also heard that from several guys.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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Not to be too picky, but:
Oakman wrote:
But is that a surprise, when our government has been outsourcing millions of jobs for the past twenty years?
so, which positions were outsourced? State Department? Defense? I think you mean the Fed permitted private industry to ship jobs overseas, don't you? If so why shouldn't a business employ the lowest cost resource to build / support its products?
Oakman wrote:
when companies are allowed to outsouce entire departments to folks who then post "PLZ HLP!"
wow, so you do support the South American (Chavez, Morales) approach. I'd be fine with a criticism of private industry for not employing citizens but to say that the government "allowed" them is frankly repulsive. In the current environment we do not need protectionist policies, unless we want a repeat of he Great Depression.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
so, which positions were outsourced? State Department? Defense
Have you taken a look at the number of contractors who are or have filled quasi-combat positons in Iraq?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
If so why shouldn't a business employ the lowest cost resource to build / support its products?
Then what we need to do is repeal the 13th and 14th amendments to the Constitution? They clearly violate the right of businesses to own slaves just like they do in India and China (yes, they are actually serfs, but the difference to the person involved is pretty minimal.)
Mike Gaskey wrote:
I'd be fine with a criticism of private industry for not employing citizens but to say that the government "allowed" them is frankly repulsive.
Did you also find it repulsive when we embargoed Cuba?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
In the current environment we do not need protectionist policies, unless we want a repeat of he Great Depression.
Only the rich benefit from that argument. It's right up there with "Too big to fail" as one of the shibboleths of the right. We have had depressions without protectionism and we have had them with protectionism. Reading a little economic history, by the way, taught me that the most recent depression is always the one called "The Great Depression." We have every right to give tax-advantages and special treatment to countries that hire Americans and no reason to offer them to businesses that want to be Chinese in all but name.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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We don't need protectionism, but we also don't need the federal goverment subsidizing the importation of cheap competition for US jobs by means of a special Visa program whose rules they are not willing or able to enforce. H1B is an egregious affront, and should be stopped immediately. It is not properly enforced, and has become nothing more than a back door for importing foreign skilled labor at the expense of US citizens. The myth that there aren't enough skilled US professionals to satisfy demand is nothing more than a lie. What is meant is there aren't enough at an entry level or lower salary. It is fast becoming a self fulfilling prophecy, however, as students observe what happens to parents and older friends and seek other professions where longevity is better.
Rob Graham wrote:
We don't need protectionism
we agree.
Rob Graham wrote:
we also don't need the federal goverment subsidizing the importation of cheap competition for US jobs by means of a special Visa program whose rules they are not willing or able to enforce.
subsidizing? the requires the expenditure of cash or credit.
Rob Graham wrote:
The myth that there aren't enough skilled US professionals to satisfy demand is nothing more than a lie.
I agree. I know good IT people stocking shelves in grocery stores. But whether we agree or disagree on these points the fact is private business is precisely that unless you want it nationalized, then we can piss and moan about how the governemt in doing business. My view (and, I've been on both sides of this argument at different times) is that we're competing in a global, not a local, economy and unless you want to delve into protectionist policies (restricting actual product imports) then a business will not survive and the very same jobs we're discussing will be lost anyway but in this case not only will the jobs be lost but so will the corporate revenue, which will go to the company/nation producing the lower cost product. This is even more probable when you consider software and/or entertainment, which can be purchased on the internet and delivered to your home or business without governmental influence or interference.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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We don't need protectionism, but we also don't need the federal goverment subsidizing the importation of cheap competition for US jobs by means of a special Visa program whose rules they are not willing or able to enforce. H1B is an egregious affront, and should be stopped immediately. It is not properly enforced, and has become nothing more than a back door for importing foreign skilled labor at the expense of US citizens. The myth that there aren't enough skilled US professionals to satisfy demand is nothing more than a lie. What is meant is there aren't enough at an entry level or lower salary. It is fast becoming a self fulfilling prophecy, however, as students observe what happens to parents and older friends and seek other professions where longevity is better.
Rob Graham wrote:
It is fast becoming a self fulfilling prophecy, however, as students observe what happens to parents and older friends and seek other professions where longevity is better.
True. I just recently advised a very bright nephew of mine to consider a career in engineering very carefully. I told him he really had to be willing to be on of the best in order to have a lucrative and long career. I am pretty sure he can do it; he is extremely bright but I just don't see the point until companies start thinking beyond the next two quarters again.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
so, which positions were outsourced? State Department? Defense
Have you taken a look at the number of contractors who are or have filled quasi-combat positons in Iraq?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
If so why shouldn't a business employ the lowest cost resource to build / support its products?
Then what we need to do is repeal the 13th and 14th amendments to the Constitution? They clearly violate the right of businesses to own slaves just like they do in India and China (yes, they are actually serfs, but the difference to the person involved is pretty minimal.)
Mike Gaskey wrote:
I'd be fine with a criticism of private industry for not employing citizens but to say that the government "allowed" them is frankly repulsive.
Did you also find it repulsive when we embargoed Cuba?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
In the current environment we do not need protectionist policies, unless we want a repeat of he Great Depression.
Only the rich benefit from that argument. It's right up there with "Too big to fail" as one of the shibboleths of the right. We have had depressions without protectionism and we have had them with protectionism. Reading a little economic history, by the way, taught me that the most recent depression is always the one called "The Great Depression." We have every right to give tax-advantages and special treatment to countries that hire Americans and no reason to offer them to businesses that want to be Chinese in all but name.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Have you taken a look at the number of contractors who are or have filled quasi-combat positons in Iraq?
are they foreigners or Americans? There's a difference.
Oakman wrote:
Mike Gaskey wrote: If so why shouldn't a business employ the lowest cost resource to build / support its products? Then what we need to do is ......
That is non-responsive.
Oakman wrote:
Only the rich benefit from that argument
along with the customers of the products and services.
Oakman wrote:
"Too big to fail" as one of the shibboleths of the right
Here we agree. We're propping up organizations that are cancerous that should be allowed to die.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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I suppose I was annoyed by the general moaning, and even though the causes of the mess we're in are quite obvious, Oakman still has to have a dig at socialism, blaming things on "neo-con and pseudo socialists" is a most meaningless phrase. Here in Europe socialism works quite well, it terrifys the fuck out of yanks because they've been brainwashed from an early age to fear. FEAR. A.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
Oakman still has to have a dig at socialism
Shouldn't everybody? :-D
AndyKEnZ wrote:
Here in Europe socialism works quite well
Yeah, I love your hospitals too.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
they've been brainwashed from an early age to fear
Who needs brainwashing when we have history? But seriously. If you're happy with it, I'm happy for you. But you can keep it.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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I think you might be hypersensitive. And rude.
Well do I apologise for being rude, perhaps I forgot a smiley or three, but the daily layoffs in the UK are reported to be 80 000 A DAY and I am rather worried, hence I might be over-sensitive too, I've got mouths to feed etc. But all this complaining about what's been going on for quite some time, outsourcing etc. it amazes me that folk didn't see this coming. There are steel plants in the UK, owned by Tata that are going to be closed, an immense loss. It's free-fall from what I see and those responsible? Never hear a word about them or from them. A.
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It truly is a strange world. Take Pfizer, they announced they would be eliminating 8000 jobs (10% of workforce) yet they also just announced their intentions to take-over Wyeth for the grand sum of $68B in cash and shares stating that they money will be borrowed from banks and that a further 20,000 combined workforce jobs would go. A cost cutting exercise.[^] As this is a huge sum of money, and US Banks being cash strapped, is this the kind of recovery your former President had in mind when bailing out the banks? But, Pfizer's announcements - is this not insensitive at this particularly time. H1B's, it would be interesting to know what percentage of those losing their jobs would be them rather than your ordinary American worker.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
is this the kind of recovery your former President had in mind when bailing out the banks?
I don't know that anybody could guess what was transpiring in his head at the time. But at least many people recognize that whatever it was, it wasn't right. The Pfizer example reminds me of Bank of America. BoA: "Hey Congress, we need a huge pile of cash" ($68B was it) Congress: "OK, here ya go" BoA: "Cool, we need to buy out Merrill for $50B" ... BoA: "Hey Congress, we need a huge pile of cash" (same amount as before)
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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Rob Graham wrote:
We don't need protectionism
we agree.
Rob Graham wrote:
we also don't need the federal goverment subsidizing the importation of cheap competition for US jobs by means of a special Visa program whose rules they are not willing or able to enforce.
subsidizing? the requires the expenditure of cash or credit.
Rob Graham wrote:
The myth that there aren't enough skilled US professionals to satisfy demand is nothing more than a lie.
I agree. I know good IT people stocking shelves in grocery stores. But whether we agree or disagree on these points the fact is private business is precisely that unless you want it nationalized, then we can piss and moan about how the governemt in doing business. My view (and, I've been on both sides of this argument at different times) is that we're competing in a global, not a local, economy and unless you want to delve into protectionist policies (restricting actual product imports) then a business will not survive and the very same jobs we're discussing will be lost anyway but in this case not only will the jobs be lost but so will the corporate revenue, which will go to the company/nation producing the lower cost product. This is even more probable when you consider software and/or entertainment, which can be purchased on the internet and delivered to your home or business without governmental influence or interference.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
I say that is is a subsidy because the government creates special rules that modify the normal immigration practices to specifically allow the importation of foreign job competition. There is no compensating trade advantage given by the beneficiaries, and the rule benefits US companies at the expense of it;s own citizens when there is no demonstrated need. It creates an artificial competition for US jobs that should not be there, and is actually an abuse of the immigrants, who end up working for what is often close to subsistence wages (this is particularly true on the West coast - Silicon valley is an exorbitantly expensive place to live). I would have no objection if there were a real, as advertised, lack of skilled candidates available, and if the rules on pay scales (they are not supposed to get paid below market, but are) were actually enforced, but they are not. Since the Fed creates an artificially priced l;abor supply (while claiming not to), it amounts to a subsidy. I would only argue for either enforce the real rules on need and pay, or terminate the special visa program. Let American job candidates compete on a level playing field (and require businesses to do the same). {edit}
Mike Gaskey wrote:
he very same jobs we're discussing will be lost anyway but in this case not only will the jobs be lost but so will the corporate revenue, which will go to the company/nation producing the lower cost product.
What the heck happened to the idea of competing on quality and capability instead of just price? {/edit}
modified on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 11:56 AM
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Oakman wrote:
Have you taken a look at the number of contractors who are or have filled quasi-combat positons in Iraq?
are they foreigners or Americans? There's a difference.
Oakman wrote:
Mike Gaskey wrote: If so why shouldn't a business employ the lowest cost resource to build / support its products? Then what we need to do is ......
That is non-responsive.
Oakman wrote:
Only the rich benefit from that argument
along with the customers of the products and services.
Oakman wrote:
"Too big to fail" as one of the shibboleths of the right
Here we agree. We're propping up organizations that are cancerous that should be allowed to die.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
are they foreigners or Americans? There's a difference.
Little, from your viewpoint, or mine. But for the Captain or Major who is passed over for promotion (3 times and you're out) because the men he would be commanding are all contractors, there probably isn't. And no, he probably won't be thrilled to start over as a buck sergeant in Blackwater.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
That is non-responsive
Not from my point of view. Unrestrained capitalism works best in a society where it can own its workers, ideally being able to dispose of them like used kleenex when they are not needed. This is, almost without exception, why so many manufacturing jobs have been moved to Mexico. It follows, as the night the day, that we should bring back slavery in this country in order to compete with foreign economies, doesn't it?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
along with the customers of the products and services.
There ain't none, once everybody who isn't rich, is unemployed.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Here we agree. We're propping up organizations that are cancerous that should be allowed to die.
We should probably start with the Senate.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 12:35 PM
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I say that is is a subsidy because the government creates special rules that modify the normal immigration practices to specifically allow the importation of foreign job competition. There is no compensating trade advantage given by the beneficiaries, and the rule benefits US companies at the expense of it;s own citizens when there is no demonstrated need. It creates an artificial competition for US jobs that should not be there, and is actually an abuse of the immigrants, who end up working for what is often close to subsistence wages (this is particularly true on the West coast - Silicon valley is an exorbitantly expensive place to live). I would have no objection if there were a real, as advertised, lack of skilled candidates available, and if the rules on pay scales (they are not supposed to get paid below market, but are) were actually enforced, but they are not. Since the Fed creates an artificially priced l;abor supply (while claiming not to), it amounts to a subsidy. I would only argue for either enforce the real rules on need and pay, or terminate the special visa program. Let American job candidates compete on a level playing field (and require businesses to do the same). {edit}
Mike Gaskey wrote:
he very same jobs we're discussing will be lost anyway but in this case not only will the jobs be lost but so will the corporate revenue, which will go to the company/nation producing the lower cost product.
What the heck happened to the idea of competing on quality and capability instead of just price? {/edit}
modified on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 11:56 AM
Rob Graham wrote:
What the heck happened to the idea of competing on quality and capability instead of just price?
ask the consumer. don't take that to mean I disagree with the idea. I think the concept of competing on a qualitative basis died when disposable razors were introduced. conceptually what I mean is that quality is much less a consideration in today's market place than it has been in the past - for many reasons.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
so, which positions were outsourced? State Department? Defense
Have you taken a look at the number of contractors who are or have filled quasi-combat positons in Iraq?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
If so why shouldn't a business employ the lowest cost resource to build / support its products?
Then what we need to do is repeal the 13th and 14th amendments to the Constitution? They clearly violate the right of businesses to own slaves just like they do in India and China (yes, they are actually serfs, but the difference to the person involved is pretty minimal.)
Mike Gaskey wrote:
I'd be fine with a criticism of private industry for not employing citizens but to say that the government "allowed" them is frankly repulsive.
Did you also find it repulsive when we embargoed Cuba?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
In the current environment we do not need protectionist policies, unless we want a repeat of he Great Depression.
Only the rich benefit from that argument. It's right up there with "Too big to fail" as one of the shibboleths of the right. We have had depressions without protectionism and we have had them with protectionism. Reading a little economic history, by the way, taught me that the most recent depression is always the one called "The Great Depression." We have every right to give tax-advantages and special treatment to countries that hire Americans and no reason to offer them to businesses that want to be Chinese in all but name.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
"Too big to fail"
This is a phrase that I find very curious. If it was too big to fail why was it allowed to get that way? What is too big to fail? I think the issues here being discussed are a matter of business, ie: profit, at the expense of either perceived or factual standards of living and morality. Just because a business can do something doesn't make it right just as it does for individuals. What is the difference between a corporation and the people who run it? Isn't the company as a whole's behavior just the culmination of the behavior of the people at the top? I'm probably going out on a limb here and a bit philosophical, but I'll say it anyway. The problems in the world are the problems we have as a people. It's inside of us. Solving all these problems is more like correcting the errors in ourselves. ;P
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H1B visas are required because there is a massive shortage of good engineers in the US. We have the same problem in the UK, it's not considered a good career these days. :sigh: When we interview engineers from abroad it is very expensive because of travel costs for interviews etc. They end up on the same salary as everyone else so it's not a cost cutting measure.
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Trollslayer wrote:
there is a massive shortage of good engineers in the US.
That's funny; there was no shortage of us back in the 90s when a few hundred thousand of us got laid off, but we've all been replaced by cheaper imports. The people who had the skill to create the space program and design the hardware used by the military now work at Walmart, or have since died too broke to ever hope for retirement. I don't see any evidence of a shortage today, either, but I see lots of people who weren't born here working jobs at lower salaries than their American peers. Maybe that's why American kids are avoiding engineering studies like the plague? It may be that your company uses H1-B visas to secure special skills that aren't readily available in the market, but the vast majority of US firms use them only to cut costs or squeeze 80 hour weeks out of people who don't know any better. Ask Nish about his first US job sometime...
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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Well do I apologise for being rude, perhaps I forgot a smiley or three, but the daily layoffs in the UK are reported to be 80 000 A DAY and I am rather worried, hence I might be over-sensitive too, I've got mouths to feed etc. But all this complaining about what's been going on for quite some time, outsourcing etc. it amazes me that folk didn't see this coming. There are steel plants in the UK, owned by Tata that are going to be closed, an immense loss. It's free-fall from what I see and those responsible? Never hear a word about them or from them. A.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
It's free-fall from what I see and those responsible?
The consumers. People want cheap and fast regardless of the ethics behind the product.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
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Trollslayer wrote:
there is a massive shortage of good engineers in the US.
That's funny; there was no shortage of us back in the 90s when a few hundred thousand of us got laid off, but we've all been replaced by cheaper imports. The people who had the skill to create the space program and design the hardware used by the military now work at Walmart, or have since died too broke to ever hope for retirement. I don't see any evidence of a shortage today, either, but I see lots of people who weren't born here working jobs at lower salaries than their American peers. Maybe that's why American kids are avoiding engineering studies like the plague? It may be that your company uses H1-B visas to secure special skills that aren't readily available in the market, but the vast majority of US firms use them only to cut costs or squeeze 80 hour weeks out of people who don't know any better. Ask Nish about his first US job sometime...
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
Roger Wright wrote:
It may be that your company uses H1-B visas to secure special skills that aren't readily available in the market, but the vast majority of US firms use them only to cut costs or squeeze 80 hour weeks out of people who don't know any better. Ask Nish about his first US job sometime...
Sadly true, so what about Nish's first job?
Bar fomos edo pariyart gedeem, agreo eo dranem abal edyero eyrem kalm kareore
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Trollslayer wrote:
there is a massive shortage of good engineers in the US.
That's funny; there was no shortage of us back in the 90s when a few hundred thousand of us got laid off, but we've all been replaced by cheaper imports. The people who had the skill to create the space program and design the hardware used by the military now work at Walmart, or have since died too broke to ever hope for retirement. I don't see any evidence of a shortage today, either, but I see lots of people who weren't born here working jobs at lower salaries than their American peers. Maybe that's why American kids are avoiding engineering studies like the plague? It may be that your company uses H1-B visas to secure special skills that aren't readily available in the market, but the vast majority of US firms use them only to cut costs or squeeze 80 hour weeks out of people who don't know any better. Ask Nish about his first US job sometime...
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
In the UK when it comes to highly skilled jobs it's down to lack - too many people are doing any kind of degree at university (esp. the 'easy' ones like media studies) because apparently when you have a degree you are owed a nice job... X|
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
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Rob Graham wrote:
What the heck happened to the idea of competing on quality and capability instead of just price?
ask the consumer. don't take that to mean I disagree with the idea. I think the concept of competing on a qualitative basis died when disposable razors were introduced. conceptually what I mean is that quality is much less a consideration in today's market place than it has been in the past - for many reasons.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Why buy something that's $40 and last me 10 years when I could just buy one that's only $5 and replace it every 3 months? It'll always be new and shiny. We like shiny.
------------------------------------- Do not do what has already been done. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.. but it ROCKS absolutely, too.
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In a single day, on Jan. 26, at least 50,000 new layoffs were announced at companies as varied as telecom giant Sprint Nextel, construction equipment maker Caterpillar, semiconductor manufacturer Texas Instruments, and pharmaceutical house Pfizer.[^] According to the above linked article, economists are now saying that the loss of jobs we have been seeing since the spring is not a cyclical fluctuation, it is a permanent change. But is that a surprise, when our government has been outsourcing millions of jobs for the past twenty years? Neocons and pseudo-socialists alike have been preaching the joys of a so-called service economy while signing NAFTA and CAFTA (and Shaft-yah) treaties that have shipped thousands of jobs to Mexico and the rest of Central and South America. Successive administrations have gleefully lowered trade barriers to cheaper goods from Asia while not insisting on quid pro quos that might have provided markets for some American products. Companies have actually been given tax breaks for closing factories in the U.S. and shipping jobs wholesale to the far east. Is it any wonder that we are seeing fewer and fewer people studying hi-tech fields in college, when companies are allowed to outsouce entire departments to folks who then post "PLZ HLP!" messages on CP; when our government has increased H1B visas working in this country to almost a million, allowing these same people to come here and take jobs at a vastly reduced salary, replacing many Americans? (Microsoft, one of the top ten employers of H1B's recently terminated 1,500 people and plans to fire 3,500 more - mot of them American-born as far as Senator Grassley can determine.) Why is anyone surprised that we are seeing more and more people sickened with e-coli infections when the vast majority of our meat processing plants and framing is being people who live in a society where washing one's hands is something to be done once a week whether it's needed or not? Edit/ Corrected a brain fart where I said one million H1Bs visa per year, when I meant one million total in this country. /Edit
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified
Oakman wrote:
when our government has increased H1B visas to almost a million per year
Are you sure about this numbers? AFAK the H1B visas was 60K for the last year. For example this means 200 new workers every year in a big city with population of one million. This will not affect the labor market in any manner – good or bad. The problem with fake programmers, using fake companies to obtain visas, which lower the quality in the IT sector, is other cattle of fish.
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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Oakman wrote:
when our government has increased H1B visas to almost a million per year
Are you sure about this numbers? AFAK the H1B visas was 60K for the last year. For example this means 200 new workers every year in a big city with population of one million. This will not affect the labor market in any manner – good or bad. The problem with fake programmers, using fake companies to obtain visas, which lower the quality in the IT sector, is other cattle of fish.
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Deyan Georgiev wrote:
Are you sure about this numbers?
I screwed up. My fingers added "per year," when my brain was out getting coffee. :-O It's not a million a year, it's a million total. This figure was a guesstimate but intended to be conservative. It counts the three years when the cap was 195,000 and the two years when the caop was around 110,000 as well as accounting for the 65,000 being allowed in every year now and the fact that all H1Bs working for non-profits or research facilities are not counted in the cap -- nor are the first 20,000 H1Bs with master's degrees, even if they work for a profit making company.
Deyan Georgiev wrote:
For example this means 200 new workers every year in a big city with population of one million.
What does the size of the city have to do with anything? By the way, there are only 8 cities in the US with a population of a million or nore, so your 200 per city leaves quite a few H1bs unaccounted for.
Deyan Georgiev wrote:
This will not affect the labor market in any manner – good or bad.
Adding 100,000 - 300,000 people every year for the last ten years has, imho, definitely lowered the number of American workers in IT, the earnings of those Americans who are still working in IT and the attractiveness of IT as a profession for college students.
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