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  4. The U.S. lost 50,000 jobs yesterday [modified]

The U.S. lost 50,000 jobs yesterday [modified]

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  • O Oakman

    Stan Shannon wrote:

    Yeah, but I just got a lot of work outsourced to me from India

    Selling car parts?

    Stan Shannon wrote:

    If we go with free markets, humanity has a future, if we go with socialism, it does not.

    Like China intends on giving you a vote.

    Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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    Stan Shannon
    wrote on last edited by
    #68

    Oakman wrote:

    Selling car parts?

    Thats just my day job.

    Oakman wrote:

    Like China intends on giving you a vote.

    I kind a doubt it too.

    Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

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    • R Roger Wright

      Tim Craig wrote:

      I think it was more like two thirds.

      That's about the usual ratio, I think. I ran across classmates sitting on a grassy knoll wondering what the hell they were doing in engineering school more than once. Usually the realization hits around the Junior (3rd) year that this was more than they'd bargained for. Some changed majors - usually to Business - while most simply disappeared. Sad, but better then than ten years into a career one hates and can't do well. :sigh:

      "A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"

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      Tim Craig
      wrote on last edited by
      #69

      Roger Wright wrote:

      Usually the realization hits around the Junior (3rd) year that this was more than they'd bargained for.

      If they made it through freshman year at my school, there as a concerted effort to weed the unserious out sophomore year in the engineering mechanics series. I did have a friend in aero who managed to fail 30 hours of math and still graduate in engineering. Finally, something clicked and the professors were recommending him for grad school in spite of his low GPA.

      "Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke

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      • R Roger Wright

        That's new then. A guy I went to school with was an illegal alien from Canada, and he worked for years at Hughes doing R&D for optical weapons systems. His clearance was higher than mine at the time. More recently, when I was at Northrop, I interviewed a candidate who was a former GRU colonel who worked at Soviet nuclear missile bases. He had an active Secret clearance (I checked). Though he was better qualified than many US applicants for the job (Trident D5 SLBM program) I didn't feel it would be prudent to hire him. :-D

        "A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"

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        Tim Craig
        wrote on last edited by
        #70

        Roger Wright wrote:

        A guy I went to school with was an illegal alien from Canada, and he worked for years at Hughes doing R&D for optical weapons systems.

        When I was at Rockwell, there were some Brits working there but, of course, they're special. :)

        "Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke

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        • O Oakman

          Pierre Leclercq wrote:

          I am not under the impression H1B holders are less paid than US citizens.

          You are wrong. So wrong, you couldn't get right if you started now and worked at it through the night.

          Pierre Leclercq wrote:

          Concerning the H1Bs, I think it is better to import workers and keep projects locally rather than offshoring everything.

          If there are Americans who can do the job - and regardless of what Obama says, there are plenty of 'em - the only reason it would be better is because they are cheaper. In many cases the same people who are brought over here for "seasoning" then return to their homeland and become outsource labor.

          Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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          Pierre Leclercq
          wrote on last edited by
          #71

          Well see this codeproject thread: http://www.codeproject.com/Lounge.aspx?fid=1159&select=2899054&fr=501#xx0xx[^] Maybe the cheap H1Bs you are refering to are those disposable application programers? My own experience as an H1B was the companies who hired me really needed my skills, and my revenues were in the six figures. So what you're saying is I would have fared better, had I been a citizen? Wouah, I wish I'd be then! Anyway, I think this country has given me so much, I'll keep my impression I was very well treated as an H1B worker. (Native code rocks!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.

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          • R Roger Wright

            That's his story to tell, if he chooses to, not mine. I'm just delighted to see that things have improved for him tremendously. :-D

            "A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"

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            Pierre Leclercq
            wrote on last edited by
            #72

            So this is the American dream. Start can be tough, but things will improve (and tremendously). So who says there is something wrong about that? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.

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            • S Shepman

              Apparently they can work directly for the Department of Defense[^]

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              Pierre Leclercq
              wrote on last edited by
              #73

              Hmm the jobs are about foreign languages, so that makes sense. But it does not talk about more sensitive jobs.

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              • T Tim Craig

                Roger Wright wrote:

                Usually the realization hits around the Junior (3rd) year that this was more than they'd bargained for.

                If they made it through freshman year at my school, there as a concerted effort to weed the unserious out sophomore year in the engineering mechanics series. I did have a friend in aero who managed to fail 30 hours of math and still graduate in engineering. Finally, something clicked and the professors were recommending him for grad school in spite of his low GPA.

                "Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke

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                R Offline
                Roger Wright
                wrote on last edited by
                #74

                Tim Craig wrote:

                something clicked and the professors were recommending him for grad school in spite of his low GPA.

                There are a few good teachers out there. I spent 8th grade algebra class reading the entire Hardy Boys series because I was hopelessly lost and too shy to ask for help. When I got a 'D' the teacher still recommended me for the advanced placement math in High School, where I excelled. :-D

                "A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"

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                • O Oakman

                  Chris Austin wrote:

                  These weren't just a little sweat shops; I've worked for the likes of TI, Novellus Semiconductor and, Bear Sterns.

                  Companies that size hire consultants to help them get around the H1B requirements. "Our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested U.S. worker" [^] As the article says, if there were a shortage of qualified Americans, would people be able to make a living showing companies how to avoid even interviewing them?

                  Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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                  Pierre Leclercq
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #75

                  Quote: "it claimed were discriminating against U.S. citizens and permanent residents by placing help wanted ads that specifically seek "H-1B only" visa holders " H1B only workers??? :omg: :wtf: Well I'd like to see those ads!! I've browsed through many employments web sites, looking for an H1B job. And what I usually find is "NO H1B, Permanent residency or citizenship required". A variation of this is "LOCAL CANDIDATES ONLY". Another quote: "If there were a 'shortage of U.S. workers,' would employers need to hire these immigration attorneys to help them avoid finding qualified candidates?" Come on! They have no clue about what they are talking about. Didn't that occur to them, lawyers do a real job for H1B applicants, by taking care of the paperwork, and helping navigate the rules and regulations, so they won't breach status and remain legal? This article is simplistic and misleading. I can't believe someone with the skills to qualify for an H1B visa would fall for such low material.

                  You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.

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                  • L Lost User

                    H1B visas are required because there is a massive shortage of good engineers in the US. We have the same problem in the UK, it's not considered a good career these days. :sigh: When we interview engineers from abroad it is very expensive because of travel costs for interviews etc. They end up on the same salary as everyone else so it's not a cost cutting measure.

                    Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.

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                    Anna Jayne Metcalfe
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #76

                    Trollslayer wrote:

                    H1B visas are required because there is a massive shortage of good engineers in the US. We have the same problem in the UK, it's not considered a good career these days

                    In my experience the main reason we have a shortage of good engineers in the UK are that they are not valued by their organisations, who want to pay lip service to quality but hire cheap. Put simply, the pay and conditions are crap (especially for hardware designers) compared to other professional occupations. Naturally, this acts as a disincentive to enter the field in the first place - which leads to perceived shortages. How many engineers to you know who earn £100k+ (typical GP salary), for example...? Even (pre recession) contract rates were far, far lower than my local garage charges for labour. Heck, I know of electrologists who were charging £50 an hour 5 years ago. Try securing that sort of rate in contract hardware or software development outside of the city.... At the end of the day, high quality engineers are expensive, so if organisations are not willing to pay that, they will end up with people who have less training and flexibility. Looked at that way, it's no surprise that we regularly come across organisations who have a big quality problem in their products.

                    Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"

                    modified on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:32 PM

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                    • P Pierre Leclercq

                      Well see this codeproject thread: http://www.codeproject.com/Lounge.aspx?fid=1159&select=2899054&fr=501#xx0xx[^] Maybe the cheap H1Bs you are refering to are those disposable application programers? My own experience as an H1B was the companies who hired me really needed my skills, and my revenues were in the six figures. So what you're saying is I would have fared better, had I been a citizen? Wouah, I wish I'd be then! Anyway, I think this country has given me so much, I'll keep my impression I was very well treated as an H1B worker. (Native code rocks!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.

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                      Oakman
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #77

                      Pierre Leclercq wrote:

                      My own experience as an H1B was the companies who hired me really needed my skills, and my revenues were in the six figures.

                      It's entirely possible that you were the only person who could fill the slot the company had at least at the price they were willing to pay.

                      Pierre Leclercq wrote:

                      I'll keep my impression I was very well treated as an H1B worker.

                      But your personal experience does not outweigh a study of Dept of Labor records made in 2005 that shows that in spite of the requirement that H-1B workers be paid the prevailing wage, H-1B workers earn significantly less than their American counterparts. On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 less than Americans in the same occupation and state.

                      Pierre Leclercq wrote:

                      So what you're saying is I would have fared better, had I been a citizen?

                      Not at all. I am saying that semi-competent H1Bs are being hired for jobs that American citizens can do for no reason other than their willingness to work cheaply. This drags down the payscale of everybody.

                      Pierre Leclercq wrote:

                      I'll keep my impression I was very well treated as an H1B worker.

                      Probably better than any American worker in France would be.

                      Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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                      • P Pierre Leclercq

                        Quote: "it claimed were discriminating against U.S. citizens and permanent residents by placing help wanted ads that specifically seek "H-1B only" visa holders " H1B only workers??? :omg: :wtf: Well I'd like to see those ads!! I've browsed through many employments web sites, looking for an H1B job. And what I usually find is "NO H1B, Permanent residency or citizenship required". A variation of this is "LOCAL CANDIDATES ONLY". Another quote: "If there were a 'shortage of U.S. workers,' would employers need to hire these immigration attorneys to help them avoid finding qualified candidates?" Come on! They have no clue about what they are talking about. Didn't that occur to them, lawyers do a real job for H1B applicants, by taking care of the paperwork, and helping navigate the rules and regulations, so they won't breach status and remain legal? This article is simplistic and misleading. I can't believe someone with the skills to qualify for an H1B visa would fall for such low material.

                        You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.

                        O Offline
                        O Offline
                        Oakman
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #78

                        Pierre Leclercq wrote:

                        Well I'd like to see those ads!!

                        In 2006 over 300 complaints were made against employers posting H1B-only employment ads. The Department of Justice announced May 1, 2008, that it has fined iGate Mastech, a Pittsburgh computer consulting company, $45,000 in civil penalties to settle allegations that it had discriminated against U.S. workers in its hiring practices, actively seeking to hire H-1B visa holders only. If, on the other hand, you are looking for H1B-only jobs that pay six figures, I doubt they exist.

                        Pierre Leclercq wrote:

                        Didn't that occur to them, lawyers do a real job for H1B applicants, by taking care of the paperwork, and helping navigate the rules and regulations, so they won't breach status and remain legal?

                        I think the one who needs a clue is you. Watch the video. The lawyer in question is explaining how to avoid hiring Americans.

                        Pierre Leclercq wrote:

                        This article is simplistic and misleading. I can't believe someone with the skills to qualify for an H1B visa would fall for such low material.

                        You have no idea.

                        Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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