What should we (US) do?
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Trollslayer wrote: Oh - and don't forget in the UK we had soldiers AND civilians murdered by the IRA. You know, that lot who raised funds in New York under the name 'Noraid' and welcomed Jerry Adams when he was congratulating the IRA on their bombing campaign ? Not to trivialize those killed by the IRA conflict but what has the UK done to provoke such anger from the folks in Northern Ireland? I've read more than a few comments by you and your ilk that imply that the US is to blame for the attacks on the WTC. That we drove the muslim extremists to such anger. Well, the same must be true in the UK as well. Honestly, what terrible things are YOU doing to Northern Ireland and it's people that they feel the need to stike out at you?
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
Yes, the UK did some terrible things in the past, but the point is that we have acknowledged it. Ask anyone in Eire or Northern Ireland about the potato famine, Oliver Cromwell etc.. By admitting what we did to the Irish people we are able to move on. Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
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Mike Mullikin wrote: what has the UK done to provoke such anger from the folks in Northern Ireland? From what little I understand of this case, I believe this specific ongoing conflict is the time honoured tradition of fighting for land and independance, with a dash of religion thrown in for good measure. There are others here more qualified to discus on this. Mike Mullikin wrote: I've read more than a few comments by you and your ilk that imply that the US is to blame for the attacks on the WTC. That we drove the muslim extremists to such anger Firstly let me just say that it annoys me no end that people continually choose to ignore the other instances that happened on that day last year - it is almost as if they are angry at the fact someone managed to attack New York, again, rather than the loss of life, commerce and freedoms that have occured since. :mad: Continuing; America as a country on the large and whole has the major problem of not taking enough effort to explain themselves and their intents accurately enough and then whine when they are either misunderstood or being treated unfairly. The world is a big place with just about every possible combination of conflicting stances and it is all too easy to cause more problems than you can handle - heck, we should be testiment enough to that for the rest of the world put together! You have special envoys and ambasadors - well use them, but more importantly allow them to work for you. No one state is perfect but at times it seems you make the effort to stand out as the little boy in the playground holding your middle finger up to the rest of the school and can't for the life of you understand why you get singled out for the cane. Understanding, stance and compromise are what will bring lasting peace to Northern Ireland, and I'll hazard a guess that will be the same elsewhere.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
David, I never said the US was perfect, far from it. I don't deny that our policies are far reaching and can adversely affect others. Whether you believe it or not my comments had little or nothing to with the US. Elaine (and others) have gone out of their way in many threads over the last 9-10 monthes pointing out that surely the US must bear some responsiblility for the WTC attacks. That some of our policies and actions MUST have angered the terrorists to cause their actions on September 11th. In this thread she brought up the IRA bombings in Northern Ireland and the Great Britain. I'm simply wondering if she is willing to accept her responsibility as well. If it's good for the goose it's good for the gander. The UK surely must bear some responsibility for the IRA's actions. No?
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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Assuming you have not in fact accidentially replied to the wrong message, what the hell has that got to do with what I said?
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
If I read your response correctly you said that if we ignore the results of WW2 then we too are committing a crime. In a certain sense I agree. But to me the biggest crime of WW2 was ignoring Hitler as he amassed his military machine and started invading other countries. IMO the world (minus the US) may be doing the same thing in Iraq.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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David, I never said the US was perfect, far from it. I don't deny that our policies are far reaching and can adversely affect others. Whether you believe it or not my comments had little or nothing to with the US. Elaine (and others) have gone out of their way in many threads over the last 9-10 monthes pointing out that surely the US must bear some responsiblility for the WTC attacks. That some of our policies and actions MUST have angered the terrorists to cause their actions on September 11th. In this thread she brought up the IRA bombings in Northern Ireland and the Great Britain. I'm simply wondering if she is willing to accept her responsibility as well. If it's good for the goose it's good for the gander. The UK surely must bear some responsibility for the IRA's actions. No?
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
Mike Mullikin wrote: That some of our policies and actions MUST have angered the terrorists to cause their actions on September 11th. That is pretty obvious stuff - people (even mad ones) don't just condemn themselves on a whim. Mike Mullikin wrote: The UK surely must bear some responsibility for the IRA's actions. No? Of course, and we do (and have done every time a has bomb or bullet has killed our military personnel and civilians. One thing that is puzzeling me - and I really can't tell form your text - are you trying to proove that other countries have guilty consciences too to help you accept this (i.e. what you have just said)? I for one have not seen anyone denying this has been -- and indeeed *is* -- the case.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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Yes, the UK did some terrible things in the past, but the point is that we have acknowledged it. Ask anyone in Eire or Northern Ireland about the potato famine, Oliver Cromwell etc.. By admitting what we did to the Irish people we are able to move on. Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
Trollslayer wrote: Yes, the UK did some terrible things in the past, but the point is that we have acknowledged it. Ask anyone in Eire or Northern Ireland about the potato famine, Oliver Cromwell etc.. By admitting what we did to the Irish people we are able to move on. I have friends in Northern Ireland. According to them the UK continues with some of it's actions even today. I wouldn't move on too quickly if I were you.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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David Wulff wrote: Well said, though I believe that relates to all of us involved and not merely Germany. What occured during the second world war was not a crime merely nazis were guilty of; it is a crime everyone willing to ignore the results is guilty of. ...and ignoring a psychotic dictator while he builds any army and weapons of mass destruction while covering you eyes like a school child and praying he goes away is another crime Europre was guilty of. IMO you're starting to do it again with Iraq. I hope we don't wait to long.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
Mike Mullikin wrote: ...and ignoring a psychotic dictator while he builds any army and weapons of mass destruction while covering you eyes like a school child and praying he goes away is another crime Europre was guilty of. IMO you're starting to do it again with Iraq. I hope we don't wait to long. Ahem.. I for one would like to leave the past behind and look forward to the future. You guys had your fair share of cruelty - slavery. Eventhough I think that was a very bad thing to do, I don't hold grudges against americans today for what they did in the past. Although, I do agree that something must be done in Iraq. But invading Iraq? I don't know if that's the best thing to do. If some looney muslim fanatics did what they did on 9/11 just because of US foreign policies, imagine what they'd do if the US launches a full scale attack on a muslim country! Perhaps it would be better if the US aided iraqi freedom fighters (or whatever) to put down the tyrant himself. I'm quite sure that most of the suffering iraqi people would love to see Saddam go as many of them live in terror. Romanian people grew some balls and got rid of Ceacescu. I bet the iraqis could do the same given the opportunity! Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!
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Mike Mullikin wrote: ...and ignoring a psychotic dictator while he builds any army and weapons of mass destruction while covering you eyes like a school child and praying he goes away is another crime Europre was guilty of. IMO you're starting to do it again with Iraq. I hope we don't wait to long. Ahem.. I for one would like to leave the past behind and look forward to the future. You guys had your fair share of cruelty - slavery. Eventhough I think that was a very bad thing to do, I don't hold grudges against americans today for what they did in the past. Although, I do agree that something must be done in Iraq. But invading Iraq? I don't know if that's the best thing to do. If some looney muslim fanatics did what they did on 9/11 just because of US foreign policies, imagine what they'd do if the US launches a full scale attack on a muslim country! Perhaps it would be better if the US aided iraqi freedom fighters (or whatever) to put down the tyrant himself. I'm quite sure that most of the suffering iraqi people would love to see Saddam go as many of them live in terror. Romanian people grew some balls and got rid of Ceacescu. I bet the iraqis could do the same given the opportunity! Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Ahem.. I for one would like to leave the past behind and look forward to the future. You guys had your fair share of cruelty - slavery. Eventhough I think that was a very bad thing to do, I don't hold grudges against americans today for what they did in the past. Slavery was an institution bequeathed to us by European imperialism. If you will bother to check your history you will find that we paid for that "sin" with lavish amounts of blood. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Although, I do agree that something must be done in Iraq. But invading Iraq? I don't know if that's the best thing to do. If some looney muslim fanatics did what they did on 9/11 just because of US foreign policies, imagine what they'd do if the US launches a full scale attack on a muslim country! Perhaps it would be better if the US aided iraqi freedom fighters (or whatever) to put down the tyrant himself. I'm quite sure that most of the suffering iraqi people would love to see Saddam go as many of them live in terror. I agree with that. Why pick on Saddam when the entire damn region is filled to the brim with people just as bad? It should be all or none as far as I am concerned. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Vuemme wrote: I think that their (our) past made the today's Germans so aware of the cruelty of death penalty and the need to thread as human beings, even those people responsible of the most horrible crimes Well said, though I believe that relates to all of us involved and not merely Germany. What occured during the second world war was not a crime merely nazis were guilty of; it is a crime everyone willing to ignore the results is guilty of.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
Ah come on, David. This is obviously a situation which calls for major sarcasm. I can't help but continue to be amused at Europe's (among whom I do not necessarily include Britain in most respects) continued attempts to redeem themselves historically at our expense. For the German's to pretend that their history has made them sensitive to "the cruelty of death penalty" is absurd. The pinnacle of 2000 years of European culture was Hitler and Stalin. I have seen no evidence that Europeans have learned anything at all from their sad history. All they have are centralized government solutions to every problem, and an never ending dependency on an entrenched cultural elite. The only Europeans who ever got it right were the ones who left. The German's can choke on their goddamned secrets for all I care. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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Mike Mullikin wrote: ...and ignoring a psychotic dictator while he builds any army and weapons of mass destruction while covering you eyes like a school child and praying he goes away is another crime Europre was guilty of. IMO you're starting to do it again with Iraq. I hope we don't wait to long. Ahem.. I for one would like to leave the past behind and look forward to the future. You guys had your fair share of cruelty - slavery. Eventhough I think that was a very bad thing to do, I don't hold grudges against americans today for what they did in the past. Although, I do agree that something must be done in Iraq. But invading Iraq? I don't know if that's the best thing to do. If some looney muslim fanatics did what they did on 9/11 just because of US foreign policies, imagine what they'd do if the US launches a full scale attack on a muslim country! Perhaps it would be better if the US aided iraqi freedom fighters (or whatever) to put down the tyrant himself. I'm quite sure that most of the suffering iraqi people would love to see Saddam go as many of them live in terror. Romanian people grew some balls and got rid of Ceacescu. I bet the iraqis could do the same given the opportunity! Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Ahem.. I for one would like to leave the past behind and look forward to the future. What's the old saying? Something like "Those that ignore the past are destined to repeat it." Thus my analogy about Hitler's build-up in the 30's. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Although, I do agree that something must be done in Iraq. But invading Iraq? Yeah, I'm not real thrilled with the prospect either. Especially a US invasion. I'm just stunned that none of the neighboring countries in the middle east, northern Africa, western asia or eastern europe seem to give a damn. If the US backs off (my hope) these are the first countries to feel the wrath of Hussein and Iraq. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Perhaps it would be better if the US aided iraqi freedom fighters (or whatever) to put down the tyrant himself. We've tried that before on various occassions. Each time with little success. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'm quite sure that most of the suffering iraqi people would love to see Saddam go as many of them live in terror. I wonder why they don't do anything about it? If anything, terrorists have proven that a few people and a little planning can have very deadly effects. Until they actually do something on their own, they are still part of the problem.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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Mike Mullikin wrote: That some of our policies and actions MUST have angered the terrorists to cause their actions on September 11th. That is pretty obvious stuff - people (even mad ones) don't just condemn themselves on a whim. Mike Mullikin wrote: The UK surely must bear some responsibility for the IRA's actions. No? Of course, and we do (and have done every time a has bomb or bullet has killed our military personnel and civilians. One thing that is puzzeling me - and I really can't tell form your text - are you trying to proove that other countries have guilty consciences too to help you accept this (i.e. what you have just said)? I for one have not seen anyone denying this has been -- and indeeed *is* -- the case.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
David Wulff wrote: One thing that is puzzeling me - and I really can't tell form your text - are you trying to proove that other countries have guilty consciences too to help you accept this (i.e. what you have just said)? I for one have not seen anyone denying this has been -- and indeeed *is* -- the case. I'm really not trying to prove anything. I read an article that I thought was interesting and posted a link, asked for opinions and gave mine. When Elaine (Trollslayer) brought up the IRA I wondered if she was willing to use the same logic against her own country as she does against mine. As proven by her response she does, but only a little. She seems to think the UK/IRA conflict is a thing of the past. Sadly she is wrong.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Ahem.. I for one would like to leave the past behind and look forward to the future. What's the old saying? Something like "Those that ignore the past are destined to repeat it." Thus my analogy about Hitler's build-up in the 30's. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Although, I do agree that something must be done in Iraq. But invading Iraq? Yeah, I'm not real thrilled with the prospect either. Especially a US invasion. I'm just stunned that none of the neighboring countries in the middle east, northern Africa, western asia or eastern europe seem to give a damn. If the US backs off (my hope) these are the first countries to feel the wrath of Hussein and Iraq. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Perhaps it would be better if the US aided iraqi freedom fighters (or whatever) to put down the tyrant himself. We've tried that before on various occassions. Each time with little success. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'm quite sure that most of the suffering iraqi people would love to see Saddam go as many of them live in terror. I wonder why they don't do anything about it? If anything, terrorists have proven that a few people and a little planning can have very deadly effects. Until they actually do something on their own, they are still part of the problem.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
Mike Mullikin wrote: What's the old saying? Something like "Those that ignore the past are destined to repeat it." Thus my analogy about Hitler's build-up in the 30's. I'm not saying we should ignore it. Hell no! But I don't think we should be reiterating it over and over again. It happened, and we must make damn sure it won't happen again. A simple way to do that is by exposing the fanatics at an early stage and enlighten the people. I don't think Hitler would have been so succesful if he would have shown his intents from the very beginning. Mike Mullikin wrote: We've tried that before on various occassions. Each time with little success. I imagine that the Iran-mishap is still fresh in the minds of CIA. Maybe that's why the attempts have been too light? Mike Mullikin wrote: I wonder why they don't do anything about it? I think it's a sign that not all muslims are willing to use their own lives in suicide attacks. If you do have the desire to live, you have to feel confident that you, or at least your children, will survive. 1) Iraqi people need means to overthrow Saddam 2) Iraqi people need to feel confident that they will overthrow Saddam If 1) and 2) are met, it'll just be a matter of time. Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Ahem.. I for one would like to leave the past behind and look forward to the future. You guys had your fair share of cruelty - slavery. Eventhough I think that was a very bad thing to do, I don't hold grudges against americans today for what they did in the past. Slavery was an institution bequeathed to us by European imperialism. If you will bother to check your history you will find that we paid for that "sin" with lavish amounts of blood. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Although, I do agree that something must be done in Iraq. But invading Iraq? I don't know if that's the best thing to do. If some looney muslim fanatics did what they did on 9/11 just because of US foreign policies, imagine what they'd do if the US launches a full scale attack on a muslim country! Perhaps it would be better if the US aided iraqi freedom fighters (or whatever) to put down the tyrant himself. I'm quite sure that most of the suffering iraqi people would love to see Saddam go as many of them live in terror. I agree with that. Why pick on Saddam when the entire damn region is filled to the brim with people just as bad? It should be all or none as far as I am concerned. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: Slavery was an institution bequeathed to us by European imperialism. If you will bother to check your history you will find that we paid for that "sin" with lavish amounts of blood. I know you paid the dues. But it took quite some time before someone made any attempts to stop the slavery. So please, let's not dig dirt from both of our histories, it helps very little. Can't we all agree to behave now and in the future? :) Reverend Stan wrote: I agree with that. Why pick on Saddam when the entire damn region is filled to the brim with people just as bad? It should be all or none as far as I am concerned. The problem is that we cannot just decide who's bad and who's not! We do not share the same cultures thus we don't think like them. Hell, you and me think differently enough to think that there is something wrong with the others country and constitutions. Can we really claim that the ayatollahs of Iran are bad for the people? Can we claim that Khadaffi is bad for Libya? This is where the UN comes into the picture. I think that the UN should be the one deciding whether or not a countries leader should be removed or not. Letting the worlds only super power decide is very much like despotism... Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!
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David, I never said the US was perfect, far from it. I don't deny that our policies are far reaching and can adversely affect others. Whether you believe it or not my comments had little or nothing to with the US. Elaine (and others) have gone out of their way in many threads over the last 9-10 monthes pointing out that surely the US must bear some responsiblility for the WTC attacks. That some of our policies and actions MUST have angered the terrorists to cause their actions on September 11th. In this thread she brought up the IRA bombings in Northern Ireland and the Great Britain. I'm simply wondering if she is willing to accept her responsibility as well. If it's good for the goose it's good for the gander. The UK surely must bear some responsibility for the IRA's actions. No?
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
Mike Mullikin wrote: out that surely the US must bear some responsiblility for the WTC attacks The US bears (some) responsibility for the attacks because of it's misguided foreign policy, especially in the mid-east. Mike Mullikin wrote: That some of our policies and actions MUST have angered the terrorists to cause their actions on September 11th. This is also the situation regarding the IRA. The IRA are angry because England owns a bit of Ireland. The difference between the two is that England has land to show for it's policies. Also, it does not have the rest of the world condemming it's actions, rather, they're on her side and condemn the IRA. As for the US, although most came out with supporting words after the attack, where are they now? Also most of the world condemn mid-east American policy. Yet the US does not listen so most of the world is *not* on it's side. The US must learn how to cultivate allies - for it's own sake. Like I've said before, the US has some serious problems foreign policy wise. Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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I read this[^] article and found it interesting. What's your opinion? Should one country refuse to provide evidence of a crime to another country because they don't agree with a possible punishment? Should the second country reduce a punishment simply to appease the first country? Would the first country feel differently if 3000 of it's civilians had been murdered? My opinion? I think the US should accept Germany's terms, convict the SOB, then place him in the general prison population. Some punishments are worse than death!!!
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
- why not? 2) itf it wants the evidence, yes. Hey, we're not even asking for dollars! 3) Although it would get quite some voices people pro-death pen, they would in no way politically support death pen.
One day I might find it quite amusing how touching tongues make life so confusing Anne Clark again [sighist]
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Reverend Stan wrote: Slavery was an institution bequeathed to us by European imperialism. If you will bother to check your history you will find that we paid for that "sin" with lavish amounts of blood. I know you paid the dues. But it took quite some time before someone made any attempts to stop the slavery. So please, let's not dig dirt from both of our histories, it helps very little. Can't we all agree to behave now and in the future? :) Reverend Stan wrote: I agree with that. Why pick on Saddam when the entire damn region is filled to the brim with people just as bad? It should be all or none as far as I am concerned. The problem is that we cannot just decide who's bad and who's not! We do not share the same cultures thus we don't think like them. Hell, you and me think differently enough to think that there is something wrong with the others country and constitutions. Can we really claim that the ayatollahs of Iran are bad for the people? Can we claim that Khadaffi is bad for Libya? This is where the UN comes into the picture. I think that the UN should be the one deciding whether or not a countries leader should be removed or not. Letting the worlds only super power decide is very much like despotism... Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: But it took quite some time before someone made any attempts to stop the slavery. Jorgen, I know this thread is a little old but I just got around to reading it. I also know we are talking in generalities. But I do not think you understand how long action against slavery was being taken. My direct ancestor wrote a petition in 1688 to the King of England asking that the king not allow the English slavery practices in the American Colonies. He was jailed for the action by the English authorities. Another ancestor had a sizable farm in Virginia (1791 to 1869). He was routinly threatened because he would only use free men and paid Blacks and Whites the same wages for a days work. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: We do not share the same cultures thus we don't think like them. Absolute agreement here. Untill both sides are willing to try to understand the others view point and be willing to share "Hey do you realize you hurt me?" so the other can do something positive I see little hope for a quick solution. Take Care. Mike If you insist in finding evil in me you will find it, whether it is there or not.
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: But it took quite some time before someone made any attempts to stop the slavery. Jorgen, I know this thread is a little old but I just got around to reading it. I also know we are talking in generalities. But I do not think you understand how long action against slavery was being taken. My direct ancestor wrote a petition in 1688 to the King of England asking that the king not allow the English slavery practices in the American Colonies. He was jailed for the action by the English authorities. Another ancestor had a sizable farm in Virginia (1791 to 1869). He was routinly threatened because he would only use free men and paid Blacks and Whites the same wages for a days work. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: We do not share the same cultures thus we don't think like them. Absolute agreement here. Untill both sides are willing to try to understand the others view point and be willing to share "Hey do you realize you hurt me?" so the other can do something positive I see little hope for a quick solution. Take Care. Mike If you insist in finding evil in me you will find it, whether it is there or not.
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Jorgen, I know this thread is a little old but I just got around to reading it. The thread is old, but the topic is timeless I'm afraid. :( Michael A. Barnhart wrote: My direct ancestor wrote a petition in 1688 to the King of England asking that the king not allow the English slavery practices in the American Colonies. I didn't know this! Thanks for enlightening me. I was taught that the majority (if not all?) of the southern states were pro-slavery. A war was needed to settle this (among other things). Michael A. Barnhart wrote: He was routinly threatened because he would only use free men and paid Blacks and Whites the same wages for a days work. It's nice to see that someone stood up for what is right. Was it common though to pay equal salaries to blacks and whites in that time? Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Jorgen, I know this thread is a little old but I just got around to reading it. The thread is old, but the topic is timeless I'm afraid. :( Michael A. Barnhart wrote: My direct ancestor wrote a petition in 1688 to the King of England asking that the king not allow the English slavery practices in the American Colonies. I didn't know this! Thanks for enlightening me. I was taught that the majority (if not all?) of the southern states were pro-slavery. A war was needed to settle this (among other things). Michael A. Barnhart wrote: He was routinly threatened because he would only use free men and paid Blacks and Whites the same wages for a days work. It's nice to see that someone stood up for what is right. Was it common though to pay equal salaries to blacks and whites in that time? Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Was it common though to pay equal salaries to blacks and whites in that time? I would not assume it was a common practice. He lived in what is now Salem VA. which in 1812 (When he purchased the property) this was frontier land. So although he and some of his neighbors (based on # of printing presses if I had to state a percentage it would be about 30% of the local population.) followed this belief, when you add in the established land owner on the East coast the percentage goes way down. All of his children moved west when they came of age to Indiana, Illinois and Kansas. So the population that felt strongly for equality goes down drastically from about 1835 to late 1850's. This making those that do not become much more dominate. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I was taught that the majority (if not all?) of the southern states were pro-slavery. This really gets into arguments on what the basis of the Civil War was over. Yes it was about slavery but also about states rights vs federal rights. It is safe to say that the majority of each southern state felt it was up to them to decide if slavery was allowed or not and no one was going to tell them what to do. Sound familiar? (This is my opinion only.) What is interesting is if you go to a town that truly is "Southern" you will not find the war even called the Civil War but the War of the Rebellion. My wife and I took a trip a month ago and stopped in an antique store. The clerk had fresh pastries and coffee free for his guests (Unless your a Yankee!) If you insist in finding evil in me you will find it, whether it is there or not.