How Has the Gaza conflict affected you [modified]

hairy_hats · modified on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 10:53 AM

Of course it wasn't justified. Was the attack on this doctor[^] justified? Were Palestinian rocket attacks justified? Was Israel grabbing land from outside its original agreed borders justified? I don't think there is a single yes/no answer to today's actions because past events are so complicated.

Oakman

pseudonym67 wrote:

but then lets face it thats about as easy to get as being called intellectually dishonest from illiot

You remind me so much of him - especially in the way you run around unavoting anyone who disagrees with you. By the way, it's "by illiot," not "from illiot."

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Oakman

Steve_Harris wrote:

Was Israel grabbing land from outside its original agreed borders justified?

Absolutely. Most of the borders in the Middle East, and in much of the rest of the world, were determined by the victors after a war. Why should Israel play nice when no-one else does?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

hairy_hats

So it would also be OK for the neighbouring countries including Palestine to attack Israel to get it back?

Oakman

Steve_Harris wrote:

So it would also be OK for the neighbouring countries including Palestine to attack Israel to get it back?

Attacking Israel was how they lost land in the first place. In all three of the major wars between Israel in its neighbors, the Arabs struck first, and in every case they discovered that Israel was a tougher nut to crack than they had bargained for. The one thing those countries don't want and can't withstand would be another war with Israel.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

hairy_hats

Their land was appropriated illegally in the first place, and given to Israel after WWII, so they are only trying to get back what was theirs. In any case, even if you attack another country it doesn't give that country the right to steal your land.

Oakman

Steve_Harris wrote:

Their land was appropriated illegally in the first place,

Take it up with Britain and France, or Turkey if you are looking for how we got where we are. Britain and France appropriated the Ottoman Empire's holdings in and around Palestine after WWI. Thirty years later, Britain turned their Palestine mandate over to what would become Israel and what would become Jordan. When they did so, they placed about 700,000 Arabs under Israeli rule and about 600,000 Jews under Jordanian rule. Should the Jews whose lands were (by your definition) illegally taken from them by Jordan have them returned? Should Jordan (which got about 75 of Palestine) be forced to give the land it (again by your definition) illegally occupied after the British pulled out and which should have created a Palestinian state?

Steve_Harris wrote:

In any case, even if you attack another country it doesn't give that country the right to steal your land.

Actually, it pretty much gives them the right to do anything they damn well please. As Mao said, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." You may not like that. You may wish it was different. But if you start acting like it isn't true, you're likely to end up staring down that barrel.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

hairy_hats

I do blame what happened on Britain and France for doing it, and for the League of Nations for sanctioning it. As Israel and its neighbours have attacked each other in the past under your rules that pretty much gives all of them free rein to do anything to each other, which isn't going to bring peace. Sooner or later, they have to sit down and talk, regardless of what they've done in the past. Better to do that before thousands die through violence, isn't it?

Oakman

Steve_Harris wrote:

I do blame what happened on Britain and France for doing it, and for the League of Nations for sanctioning it.

But you are giving a free pass to the Ottoman Empire? Maybe you think that Turkey should be given back palestine? After all, they controlled it for 400 years. Or is it that you think that regardless of what has happened, regardless of who did what to whom with what, the poor little downtrodden Palestinians, blameless and peacelovers all, should be allowed to kill Israeli women and kids without any response from israel - or maybe all those goddam christ-killers should just learn to swim? Is that what this is really all about?

Steve_Harris wrote:

As Israel and its neighbours have attacked each other in the past.

To the best of my knowledge, Israel has always responded to attacks, never initiated them. The Arabs complain because every time an Arab country attacks - or permits terrorists to operate with impugnity on their territory, a lot more Arabs get killed than Israelis. And damfools, like you, fall for their bullshit because you are blind to the provocatiion, but suck up the propaganda like it was champagne.

Steve_Harris wrote:

Better to do that before thousands die through violence, isn't it?

Tell it to Hamas. It took them a week before they violated their latest ceasefire.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

hairy_hats

The land that is now Israel was wrested illegally from its inhabitants within living memory, which is surely as much provocation for attacks as firing a rocket is for retaliation, to those who think violence is the solution. Violence on either side however is pointless because sooner or later they'll have to reach some sort of agreement, and it might as well be sooner to save lives on all sides.

Oakman

Steve_Harris wrote:

The land that is now Israel was wrested illegally from its inhabitants within living memory

You just said that the Brits took it over in 1918. That means that very few people are alive who remember when it was "wrested illegally from its inhabitants." And, as I pointed out - those were Turks. I guess you just don't care about the land "wrested illegally" from the Jews by Jordan, huh? Even though there were almost as many Jews and Arabs that lost land in 1948? Fuck the Christ-Killers, right?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

hairy_hats

Oakman wrote:

f*** the Christ-Killers, right?

Yawn. Go on, ignore the repeated times I've said that they all need to negotiate ASAP to prevent further bloodshed. I don't frankly care which side they are on, or who started it, or who did what to whom since, they just all need to grow up, stop the tit-for-tat fighting, and negotiate.

Oakman

Steve_Harris wrote:

ignore the repeated times I've said that they all need to negotiate ASAP to prevent further bloodshed

And how about all the times when you blamed the Israelis?

Steve_Harris wrote:

or who started it,

Perhaps you should review what you wrote - or edit it to reflect your new point of view.

Steve_Harris wrote:

they just all need to grow up, stop the tit-for-tat fighting, and negotiate.

Ever tried to negotiate with a drunk who had no goal in life except to punch you out?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.