9 minute video on Brits and gun "control"

[Christian Graus]

Oakman wrote:

Or, more accurately, what he called socialism led to enslaving hundreds of thousands of people and that in order to do so safely, he needed to disarm them.

I am sure. But, the example is disingenuous for many reasons. At it's core, the issue is that the US is home to far more gun murders per capita than any other country, and yet, because of some bizarre fantasy that the US is about to become a socialist nation ( I can't believe I'm saying this to you, and not Stan ), some people think that the guns that are killing you, are making you safe.

Oakman wrote:

Surely, they thought, there was no need to protect yourself against the government!

The real issue is that you have no means to protect yourself from your government. Also, that your government is rooted in American ideals, or at least, knows what they are. They steal your freedom by telling you that you're free, not by pointing a gun at you. This is unlikely to change, IMO.

Oakman wrote:

You might be surprised how much damage a smaller, less-well-equipped force can do.

Not at all. You guys kicked out the Poms, after all. But, what that force needs, is a critical mass. How many of your fellow Americans do you really think would head to the hills and start a resistance ?

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Christian Graus]

And how many of your countrymen do you think will be happy to play those odds ?

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Christian Graus]

I knew as I wrote it that you would think so. So, you think that the government shouldn't build roads and bridges ?

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Oakman]

Christian Graus wrote:

And they have missiles that can target your house, specifically. You think any weapon you could buy, can defend you against that ?

I don't really think you totally understand the limitations of air power, but for the sake of argument, let's stipulate that the government's tech is enough higher that in any pitched battle, the government wins. Is that a reason to simply give the government carte blanche? To not only not resist, but to willingly give up the means of resistance? Is the enormous firepower you posit enough of an inducement to decide that the government is always right? No matter what? As a student of history, can you name me one government that did not take all the power it could get? Can you name me a country, including yours and mine, that has not used its armed forces to imprison or kill people whose only crime was being different? Can you name me one government that would not govern better if it was a little bit afraid of what its citizens would do if it overreached its bounds? When exactly is it okay to say "there is some shit I will not eat?"

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Stan Shannon]

Christian Graus wrote:

So, you think that the government shouldn't build roads and bridges ?

There is little danger in it as long as it is mostly paid for by taxes raised by the use of existing infrastructure (ie taxation on cars, fuel, tires, etc). The danger comes when government uses public works as a means of controlling the population itself using some excuse of trying to stimulate the economy.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Stan Shannon]

Christian Graus wrote:

And how many of your countrymen do you think will be happy to play those odds ?

Depends on how many houses get blown up I suppose.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Christian Graus]

Oakman wrote:

Is that a reason to simply give the government carte blanche?

No, but what are you resisting ? That they take away weapons you don't need, on the basis of a threat that is entirely in your minds ?

Oakman wrote:

To not only not resist, but to willingly give up the means of resistance?

Again, this is ridiculous. You have no means of resistance.

Oakman wrote:

Is the enormous firepower you posit enough of an inducement to decide that the government is always right? No matter what?

No, it's a reason to assume that cutting down the number of children who get needlessly shot every year is worth losing ground on something that is just a fantasy.

Oakman wrote:

As a student of history, can you name me one government that did not take all the power it could get?

'all the power it could get' doesn't just mean all the power it could take by force. Australia is not remotely armed, and our societies are very similar, in many ways, I think you're more oppressed by government than we are.

Oakman wrote:

Can you name me a country, including yours and mine, that has not used its armed forces to imprison or kill people whose only crime was being different?

Well, I know that we have, so, no. But, here's the rub. When did this happen in the US, and was it stopped through an armed uprising of hte populace ?

Oakman wrote:

Can you name me one government that would not govern better if it was a little bit afraid of what its citizens would do if it overreached its bounds?

You're on drugs if you think your government is scared of you.

Oakman wrote:

When exactly is it okay to say "there is some sh*t I will not eat?"

This sounds good, but it has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Christian Graus]

Stan Shannon wrote:

he danger comes when government uses public works as a means of controlling the population itself using some excuse of trying to stimulate the economy.

Controls them in what way ? Do you mean that taxes would have to be raised, or some effect of running a deficit ?

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Mike Gaskey]

Christian Graus wrote:

That they take away weapons you don't need

now whose fucking decision should that be - some half baked jackass that is currently in power?

Christian Graus wrote:

You have no means of resistance

bullshit, only if you bare your throat.

Christian Graus wrote:

it's a reason to assume that cutting down the number of children who get needlessly shot killed in auto accidents

garage those autos!

Christian Graus wrote:

When did this happen in the US, and was it stopped through an armed uprising of hte populace ?

thnking, thinking, thinking - oh, I have it. It was called, ready for this, the Revolution.

Christian Graus wrote:

You're on drugs if you think your government is scared of you.

right, the very reason there's constant pressure to overturn the 2nd Amendment or render it moot is bacause benevolent leaders want what is best for, drum roll, the children.

Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.

[JimmyRopes]

Mike Gaskey wrote:

I'm not sure about knives, bet there's a correlation to knife ownership and knife deaths as well.

Since everyone owns a knife, my grandmother owned many very sharp knives, I don't think there is a statistically significant correlation. I remember being boarded by the US Coast Guard while out on a friend’s boat fishing one night and being asked if we had any weapons on board. We responded no and the Coast Guard Officer walked over to a cutting board and picked up a rather long filleting knife and said that you would be surprised at how many people say no when they have knives on board. My response was that is because it is a tool and not a weapon. By the same token if I have a hammer on board it is a tool unless I whack someone in the head with it. Then it becomes a weapon. Until then it remains a tool.

Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes

[Stan Shannon]

Christian Graus wrote:

Controls them in what way ?

I mean organization of large portions of the available work force to achieve centrally planned goals defined by a collectivist government.

Christian Graus wrote:

Do you mean that taxes would have to be raised, or some effect of running a deficit ?

I mean precisely what I said. To the greatest extent possible, infrastructue should be paid for with consumption taxes. Obviously, there will be times when other taxes will be needed, or deficit spending required. But that should be purposefully kept to as small an overall share of the expense as possible.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Oakman]

Christian Graus wrote:

At it's core, the issue is that the US is home to far more gun murders per capita than any other country,

Not true. Of English-speaking countries, South Africa takes first place; In the Americas, Colombia outshines us, world-wide, Thailand is so far beyond any other country as to not be in the same ball park. And if you forget about trying to blame guns per se, you discover that there are 24 major countries that have a higher murder rate per capita that the U.S. It appears that in many countries a knife or a hammer serves quite well. So if that is the core issue, I guess maybe things aren't quite so black and white as you thought.

Christian Graus wrote:

They steal your freedom by telling you that you're free, not by pointing a gun at you.

I agree. And one of the freedoms they seem to be offering is the freedom to be helpless when MS13 shows up in force. If somehow they could guarantee that gun crime would shrink by the same percentage as gun control grew, I might feel very differently. But, as the statistics from Washington, DC and New York City seem to show, when gun control is at its strongest, so is gun crime.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Stan Shannon]

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/uk-knife-deaths-highest-records-began[^] An interesting contrast...

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Oakman]

Stan Shannon wrote:

Obviously, there will be times when other taxes will be needed, or deficit spending required.

You are now in total agreement with Nancy Pelosi. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Stan Shannon]

Oakman wrote:

You are now in total agreement with Nancy Pelosi.

Except for the "purposefully kept to a minimum" part.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Christian Graus]

Precisely. None of this will happen, and it has no need to, Americans are already enslaved to their government, there's no need for a show of force. But, if it did, people would fold.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Mike Gaskey]

Stan Shannon wrote:

interesting

and I was trying to be funny. I bet there'd be a kerfluffle over my switchblade as well.

Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.

[JimmyRopes]

That is because they don't have acces to guns. ;P

Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes

[JimmyRopes]

Let's face it the UK is rapidly becoming a violent society. Even the Bobbies are carrying guns! Gone are the days of walking up to a criminal and saying come along old chap I am locking you up.

Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes

[Christian Graus]

Mike Gaskey wrote:

now whose f***ing decision should that be - some half baked jackass that is currently in power?

Well, someone with an ounce of common sense, I'd have hoped. Which the gun lobby severely lacks, it seems.

Mike Gaskey wrote:

bullsh*t, only if you bare your throat.

Oh, you can commit suicide if you like. But, it won't stop them, if your delusions ever actually played out in reality.

Mike Gaskey wrote:

garage those autos!

I'm sorry, I am surprised to find out that you're so stupid, because I don't usually think of you that way. Seriously.

Mike Gaskey wrote:

thnking, thinking, thinking - oh, I have it. It was called, ready for this, the Revolution.

Oh, OK. so, again, back when the weapons you had were actually capable of standing against the weapons of your oppressors ? This is my core point.

Mike Gaskey wrote:

right, the very reason there's constant pressure to overturn the 2nd Amendment or render it moot is bacause benevolent leaders want what is best for, drum roll, the children.

OK, so you're saying that both you and the government don't give a damn about gun deaths in the USA ?

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.