9 minute video on Brits and gun "control"

[Christian Graus]

Stan Shannon wrote:

But the control of wealth needed to maintain such projtect inhibits the economic growth which would otherwise occur if that wealth were circualtiong freely in that same society, putting those same people to work in more productive endeavors not controlled by the government.

Probably. I'd see it as good only in a situation where credit is frozen, business is stagnating, and people are killing themselves and their kids b/c they lose their jobs. i.e. the situation we are in. But, I agree that it needs to be clearly managed as something that would segue into more traditional forms of work as the situation improves.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Stan Shannon]

Christian Graus wrote:

In particular, the way that big business owns your government and can buy whatever they want, over the will of the people.

I agree that is an issue, but I hardly see how it translates into being enslaved. As long as I am gainfully employed providing for my own needs, than I am free. The only definition of freedom is being able to care for one's own needs in one's own way. If business is conrolling government, the problem is with government, not business.

Christian Graus wrote:

Well, I think that getting a bunch of farm boys to go and shoot down american civilians is the biggest challenge that the goverment would face if it wanted to go that route.

I'm not sure I understand that.

Christian Graus wrote:

Yes, I agree. Food is a big issue, because so few people have any idea, or the means, to create their own. We could actually be self sufficient if we wanted to ( that is, my family ), something I value highly, although I don't share your concerns about government intervention, I do think food prices are going to be on the rise.

You wouldn't be self-sufficient for very long without a gun to protect your food from your hungry neighbors.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Stan Shannon]

Christian Graus wrote:

Probably. I'd see it as good only in a situation where credit is frozen, business is stagnating, and people are killing themselves and their kids b/c they lose their jobs. i.e. the situation we are in.

I just don't trust modern liberalism with such power, however. Their entire hold on power is their ability to control the nation's wealth to buy off special interest groups. They are not doing this to get the economy back on its feet and help people, they are doing it to consolidate their hold on power.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[MrPlankton]

Scary. Thanks for the link.

MrPlankton

Mexican boy: Viene la tormenta! Sarah Connor: What did he just say? Gas Station Attendant: He said there's a storm coming Sarah Connor: [sighs] I know.

[MrPlankton]

Christian Graus wrote:

Again, this is ridiculous. You have no means of resistance

Australia is still considered part of the British Commonwealth. The US is not. The citizens of the colonies did not think armed "resistance was futile" against the Brittan… old habits die hard.

MrPlankton

Mexican boy: Viene la tormenta! Sarah Connor: What did he just say? Gas Station Attendant: He said there's a storm coming Sarah Connor: [sighs] I know.

[Christian Graus]

MrPlankton wrote:

Australia is still considered part of the British Commonwealth.

You'd have to be a rank outsider to think that we consider ourselves part of that in any meaningful way.

MrPlankton wrote:

The citizens of the colonies did not think armed "resistance was futile" against the Brittan… old habits die hard.

Again - back then and today are chalk and cheese. It's idiotic to suggest any sort of parallel.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Oakman]

Christian Graus wrote:

It's idiotic to suggest any sort of parallel.

Then why do so many of us, relatively intelligent and well-read, keep suggesting that some parallels can be drawn? Is absolutely everyone who disagrees with you on this an idiot?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Christian Graus]

Stan Shannon wrote:

I'm not sure I understand that.

you think the soldiers in the US army are going to support a government takeover, fire on civilians ?

Stan Shannon wrote:

I agree that is an issue, but I hardly see how it translates into being enslaved

Well, it's not democracy, the will of the people is irrelevant.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Christian Graus]

Oakman wrote:

Then why do so many of us, relatively intelligent and well-read, keep suggesting that some parallels can be drawn?

Well, I'd say it's a clear example of otherwise intelligent people bowing to their cultural conditioning and upbringing. b/c this WAS the case in the US, subsequent generations continue to teach their kids that it IS, and they continue to believe it.

Oakman wrote:

Is absolutely everyone who disagrees with you on this an idiot?

Everyone who believes this, believes something idiotic, yes. Are they all mentally incompetent ? No, of course not. They are just wrong, as far as this one thing is concerned, and obviously brainwashed or otherwise indoctrinated, given that some of the people involved, appear to be capable of rational thought at other times. I've asked many people over the years, if the government comes after you with all the weapons in it's arsenal, what do you have that you expect to be able to stand up to them. I've never heard a sensible answer. I've also many times pointed out the unlikelihood of the US Army attacking the US populace, precisely because of the culture that you have, but this also seems to fall on deaf ears. I've also read books about gun nuts, and I know that the people I talk to on CP are the tip of a very scary ice berg.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Oakman]

Christian Graus wrote:

Well, I'd say it's a clear example of otherwise intelligent people bowing to their cultural conditioning and upbringing.

Yes, exactly what I am afraid has happened to Oz.

Christian Graus wrote:

if the government comes after you with all the weapons in it's arsenal

Hobson's choice. There are plenty of scenarios where having a gun in the house is useful. Some of those are based on the deterent effect on our local police forces getting out of hand. Others deal with the potential threat of gangs. To assume that the only legitimate concern is an all out war between the U.S. and its citizens is a waste of time. To postulate that the Army would just blindly follow orders to attack civilians will-he nil-he is a red herring drawn across the discussion. It might be useful for you to remember that the United States has as many illegal aliens residing within its borders as Australia has inhabitants of all sorts. We have two individual states with much larger populations that your country has and two others that match it. Assuming that a solution that works for Oz can be transferred over to the U.S. without a lot of careful examination is, to coin a phrase, idiotic. Solutions that work for California and its population would be a total fail here in South Carolina. Why then, would we (or you) think that Oz - with a very different population mix, history, and set of neighbors - have solutions that transferred 1:1 to every state in our union? The U.S. has been (and I believe properly) faulted for attempting to export its way of life to other countries. So are we suddenly to believe that Australia has found the answers, not just for itself, but for the entire world?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Stan Shannon]

Christian Graus wrote:

you think the soldiers in the US army are going to support a government takeover, fire on civilians ?

I'm still not sure I understand. I am suggesting scenarios where at least some portion of the military refuses to obey the federal government or actively fights against it.

Christian Graus wrote:

Well, it's not democracy, the will of the people is irrelevant.

A system where the government cares for the people's every need is not a democracy either. The best way to prevent government from corrupting business is to keep it small and unobtrusive.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Lost User]

Stan Shannon wrote:

I'm still not sure I understand. I am suggesting scenarios where at least some portion of the military refuses to obey the federal government or actively fights against it.

Christian was using the term Farm Boys to mean un-educated yokels being your military. He is then saying that he believes that the Government could not get said Good Ol' Boys to start shooting at and killing fellow Americans. That is about the only chance you would have of the Government not being totally in control, they have he weapons and the capabilities but still require average Yanks to then kill other Yanks.

Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004

[Lost User]

Oakman wrote:

Then why do so many of us, relatively intelligent and well-read, keep suggesting that some parallels can be drawn?

The same same reason billions believe in mystical beings living in the sky and controlling everything that happens to them, unless of course if it's a bad thing, then some other bad mystical being did it. Upbringing. Taught crap by rote from birth and people will believe it as fact. You lot keeping your Government in check by using your Dirty Harry 44 Magnums is the same type of fantasy.

Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004

[Oakman]

Michael Martin wrote:

Upbringing. Taught crap by rote from birth and people will believe it as fact.

You might look at the amount of shit your government has taught you to eat before expounding on how other countries behave.

Michael Martin wrote:

You lot keeping your Government in check by using your Dirty Harry 44 Magnums is the same type of fantasy.

Your national fucking hero is a guy who got stabbed to death by a fish.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Lost User]

Oakman wrote:

You might look at the amount of sh*t your government has taught you to eat before expounding on how other countries behave.

Catch us being jingoistic, geting our kids to pledge allegiance to the flag at an age they have no idea what it means and believing we can hold our nations military in check with our cache of guns and you have me.

Oakman wrote:

Your national f***ing hero is a guy who got stabbed to death by a fish.

Yes, but it was a fucking big fish, a Guppy would take down one of you Yanks.

Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004

[Oakman]

Michael Martin wrote:

Catch us being jingoistic, geting our kids to pledge allegiance to the flag at an age they have no idea what it means and believing we can hold our nations military in check with our cache of guns and you have me.

Australians? Guns? Don't make me laugh. Patriotism? Australia? Don't make me laugh. Have a military worth being worried about? Australia? Not in a long time. Your country has been hiding behind America's skirts for sixty years.

Michael Martin wrote:

Yes, but it was a f***ing big fish, a Guppy would take down one of you Yanks.

I feed guppies to my piranhas. When I can't find a aussie.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Stan Shannon]

Michael Martin wrote:

un-educated yokels being your military

You mean like the guys who won the American Revolution?

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.