Xenophobia

KaRl

digital man wrote:

You're quite wrong to see this as xenophobia or nationalism:

Who are the scapegoats? Non-british workers. That's xenophobia to me.

digital man wrote:

could have written a clause into the contract that local labour should be used first

This is illegal, as long as UK is part of the EU.

digital man wrote:

these men are frightened and fearful of the future

True, but they first don't identify the real problem and next they ask for the wrong solution.

digital man wrote:

a very stupid thing to say

Agreed.

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R Giskard Reventlov

Ka?l wrote:

Who are the scapegoats? Non-british workers. That's xenophobia to me.

You've missed the point: this isn't about foreign workers; if they'd all been welsh or from London the response would have been the same: they want work and they're pissed that by dint of living close by they didn't get it whether or not they deserved it or were skilled enough to warrant getting it.

Ka?l wrote:

This is illegal, as long as UK is part of the EU.

I don't believe that is the case: they might have only advertised the jobs first in the local papers: that breaks no laws at all and, had few replied or been qualified the entire argument would have been moot.

Ka?l wrote:

True, but they first don't identify the real problem and next they ask for the wrong solution.

Pretty sure I already explained that.

me, me, me

Dalek Dave

You are wrong to use the term Xenophobia, that merely means irrational fear of strangers. The EU is considering making Xenophobia illegal! (It is currently a crime in Germany!) Now, I assume that if Xenophobia is made illegal, they will go ahead and make Claustrophobia and Arachnophobia illegal too! I hope they make Hydrophobia illegal, as that is a nasty one! The trouble with people today is that the really thick ones are running the place. Orwell was right, change the meaning of words and people are easy to control! I don't think the workers are actually xenophobic. They are just Pissed Off at foreigners coming here and taking their jobs. More a kind of Nationalistic Resentment.

------------------------------------ "Your manuscript is both good and original. But the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good." Dr Samuel Johnson

Oakman

Dalek Dave wrote:

I hope they make Hydrophobia illegal, as that is a nasty one!

I hope they go after Triskaidekaphobia. So many people are afraid of the number 13. . .

Dalek Dave wrote:

They are just Pissed Off at foreigners coming here and taking their jobs. More a kind of Nationalistic Resentment.

Isn't having any national pride illegal in the EU unless you are French?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Chris Austin

I have just a simple question. Are the imported workers required to be paid as much as the local workers would be paid under EU law?

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long

KaRl

digital man wrote:

You've missed the point

By blaming non locals, they missed the point.

digital man wrote:

they might have only advertised the jobs first in the local papers

Why would the Italian company which won the contract would recruit locals when it has the competent people in its own staff? Why would Total limit the contracts to UK companies only?

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KaRl

Dalek Dave wrote:

the term Xenophobia, that merely means irrational fear of strangers.

Then I perfectly chose my word.

Dalek Dave wrote:

More a kind of Nationalistic Resentment

Nationalism is when hate for people other than your own comes first.

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KaRl

The reference text is this one: Directive 96/71/EC[^]: "The key content of directive 96/71/CE The Directive seeks to guarantee that posted workers will enjoy, whatever the law applicable to the employment relationship (see in particular the 1980 Rome Convention on the law applicable to contractual obligations), the application of certain minimum protective provisions in force in the Member State to which they are posted. To this end, Article 3(1) of the Directive lays down the mandatory rules to be observed by employers during the period of posting in regard to the following issues: * maximum work periods and minimum rest periods, * minimum paid annual holidays, * minimum rates of pay, * the conditions of hiring-out of workers, in particular the supply of workers by temporary employment undertakings, * health, safety and hygiene at work, * protective measures with regard to the terms and conditions of employment of pregnant women or women who have recently given birth, of children and of young people. "

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Oakman

pseudonym67 wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/03/gordon-brown-economic-policy\[^\]

Excellent article. It would appear that Britain is as well-served by her globalist leaders as the US has been.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Chris Austin

I'll take that to be a yes :). So, is this enforced in practice? Does a roofer or mason from Italy get paid the same as a local tradesman when he comes to work in Paris? Or, are people paid "under the table" (in cash) at substantially less than their domestic counterpart?

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long

Oakman

Ka?l wrote:

The reference text is this one: Directive 96/71/EC[^]:

In other words, no. The British workers get the Union minimum; the aliens get the minimum wage.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Dalek Dave

Ka?l wrote:

Then I perfectly chose my word.

No, their fear is RATIONAL, they fear for their jobs, therefore it is not a Phobia.

Ka?l wrote:

Nationalism is when hate for people other than your own comes first.

Well, exactly, they want British Jobs for British Workers, that is exactly as you describe Nationalism. Xenophobia could relate to people from the next village.

------------------------------------ "Your manuscript is both good and original. But the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good." Dr Samuel Johnson

R Giskard Reventlov

Ka?l wrote:

By blaming non locals, they missed the point.

Again, pretty sure that; swhat I said.

Ka?l wrote:

Why would the Italian company which won the contract would recruit locals when it has the competent people in its own staff? Why would Total limit the contracts to UK companies only?

I didn't say they should, I said they could and there would have been nothing wrong with that either: it would have been more senstive to the local people. However, they are perfectly within their rights to cöck-a-snoot and import workers from wherever it suits them and upholds profits. Isn't it bizarre that, for a change, we are agreeing and can't agree that we are agreeing? You have to laugh. :-)

me, me, me

Dalek Dave

No, they are required to be paid a wage concurrent with their home country, therefore undercutting UK minimum wage.

------------------------------------ "Your manuscript is both good and original. But the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good." Dr Samuel Johnson

Lost User

Chris Austin wrote:

I'll take that to be a yes

You would be wrong. Minimum wages means exactly as defined by law - namely the minimum your employer is required to pay for your labour. This is not necessarily the going rate for the job. However, pay "under the table" is tantamount to the "black economy" and should always be discouraged and is thus illegal, but that doesn't stop that happening especially in "sweat-shops" and undeclared "on-the-side" earnings.

KaRl

Chris Austin wrote:

I'll take that to be a yes

Not exactly - For instance, local workers can be paid over the minimum local wage, when the EU directive asks that paychecks are at least that minimum local wage.

Chris Austin wrote:

So, is this enforced in practice?

I don't know for UK, but generally unions are careful about it and don't hesitate to go to court.

Chris Austin wrote:

Does a roofer or mason from Italy get paid the same as a local tradesman when he comes to work in Paris? Or, are people paid "under the table" (in cash) at substantially less than their domestic counterpart?

If the worker is from Italy, (s)he could ask for the same wage than his/her french counterpart, or (s)he could go to court for discrimination. The issue comes when the worker works for a Italian company, he would work in France at the conditions of its Italian job, as long as it respects the EU directive. That could be less and sometimes way less than a worker working for a local company.

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hairy_hats

Dalek Dave wrote:

Xenophobia could relate to people from the next village.