So, whats up with Obama's anti-Brit attitude?

[Stan Shannon]

I will admit to being wrong about Obama. I had felt that he was far too intelligent to turn too sharply to the left. Apparently, he isn't. He is working closely with the radical leftist who control congress to create a full blown social welfare state as rapidly as possible. But what explains this? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4623148/Barack-Obama-sends-bust-of-Winston-Churchill-on-its-way-back-to-Britain.html[^] http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/james_delingpole/blog/2009/03/05/was_lady_macbeth_behind_barack_obamas_snub_of_gordon_brown[^] These two appear to actually be prepared to vent their personal black liberation theology principles in a very immature way. It is now obvious, I would think, that Rev. Wright, and other radicals, did have a profound influence on their world view after all.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Oakman]

Stan Shannon wrote:

It is now obvious, I would think, that Rev. Wright, and other radicals, did have a profound influence on their world view after all.

How in God's name did you leap from the two articles to that conclusion? :confused: I am not at all thrilled with Obama's peremptory manner with Brown, but I think it's far more likely to be (another) demonstration of his lack of experience than anything else. To postulate that he and his wife plotted into the night on how to best embarrass the Brits as payback for what you say, without proof, was a slight to their great great grandparents is going a wee bit into the realm of tinfoil beanies. Shave this theory with Occam's razor.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Mike Gaskey]

Oakman wrote:

How in God's name did you leap from the two articles to that conclusion?

you need read nothing, just follow the Magic Negro in the media. check today's lie, “The cost of health care now causes a bankruptcy in America every thirty seconds,"[^] Obama said. we're in for a 4 year spin towards the drain and we're dead as a nation unless a handfull of Democrats in the Senate come to their senses.

Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.

[Oakman]

Mike Gaskey wrote:

you need read nothing, just follow the Magic Negro in the media. check today's lie, “The cost of health care now causes a bankruptcy in America every thirty seconds,"[^] Obama said.

Mike, you need to reread what I wrote. I'm not questioning whether the present course of action by all the folks in power in Washington is wrongheaded. I'm questioning how Stan read what he did and took it as proof that Obama (and his wife who has said nothing and done nothing regarding this issue) changed the press conference to a photo op and returned the Churchill bust because he was mad at the Brits for things that happened before he was born. It's not what he did that I was talking about, nor the effect it may have had on the Brits - it's the unsupported, unsubstantiated reasons why he behaved in such a boorish manor that I find hard to swallow.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[John Carson]

If you'd like a little reality: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/03/obama-snub.html[^] http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/alex_spillius/blog/2009/03/05/michelle_obama_is_no_lady_macbeth[^]

John Carson

[Mike Gaskey]

reality fom the LAT? nah.

Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.

[John Carson]

Mike Gaskey wrote:

reality fom the LAT? nah.

A fairly typical attitude from the ditto heads. The central facts --- that, for example, the press conference was moved because it was snowing --- have been widely reported.

John Carson

[Mike Gaskey]

Oakman wrote:

you need to reread what I wrote.

right, I lit up somewhat wrong headly. but ... I spit nails every time the fool trots out more crap and the prospect of watching the country devolve is sickening. I think I'll go watch the Maui sunset and chill.

Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.

[Oakman]

John Carson wrote:

The central facts --- that, for example, the press conference was moved because it was snowing --- have been widely reported.

In, among other places, the articles Stan linked to. I would like to believe that the gaffe was simply another in the growing list of missteps Obama has made recently. (Yes, I could recite the list if you needed me to, but I suspect you can cite a number of times the administration has come up with egg on its face, yourself. And yes, he's had some successes, but even those have been accomplished with goofs along the way.) Perhaps it's that he hasn't had a lot of experience in the pomp and circumstance side of the presidency, or that he thinks he's too busy and everyone will understand, or maybe the strain is causing him to blunder. Whatever it is, it bothers me. The problem with not having the sense to reschedule the press conference for inside the White House is exacerbated by the return of the Churchill bust and/or vice versa. Blair is apparently on his way out, but at this time and this place he was the symbol of the UK, America's staunchest ally in war and peace for at least 100 years. The Brits deserved more respect.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[John Carson]

Oakman wrote:

Perhaps it's that he hasn't had a lot of experience in the pomp and circumstance side of the presidency, or that he thinks he's too busy and everyone will understand, or maybe the strain is causing him to blunder. Whatever it is, it bothers me. The problem with not having the sense to reschedule the press conference for inside the White House is exacerbated by the return of the Churchill bust and/or vice versa. Blair is apparently on his way out, but at this time and this place he was the symbol of the UK, America's staunchest ally in war and peace for at least 100 years. The Brits deserved more respect.

There was a limited press conference; the transcript is given at the end of the LA Times article. It has also been reported that, concerned about any ruffled feathers, Obama phoned Brown later. I don't know if returning the Churchhill bust caused any offence to the British government or just some excitable reporters. It was on loan, not a gift. There are those who think that eventually returning loaned items is actually a good thing. I agree that the Administration has not been misstep free, just as Obama's campaign was not misstep free (the "cling to their guns and religion" thing, for example). However, I don't see any huge errors and Obama is very good at recovering from missteps.

John Carson

[Lost User]

I suspect part of the problem is that Gordon Brown's all too vocal condemnation of the United States, as being the cause of the world's financial problems, over these recent months is considered the apparent reason this side of "the Pond". Yet when he addressed Congress, not a word of same rhetoric was used. Gordon Brown is more vocal and hands-on than Blair. In terms of worldly experiences, Obama has that to find but, given time, that will be rectified, and this could also be part of the problem. The bust is a non-issue as far as I am concerned. Regarding respect, frankly, in the White House you have a "New Broom". He wants, and rightly, to make his mark on the place and old alliances may no longer be relevant. So starting a relationship anew, both parties need to work on earning mutual respect, and the world being "a smaller place" (so to speak), new friends and alliances are probably being found at some expense to the old arrangements. The European Union is a bigger political/economic force than the United Kingdom alone and the new United States administration recognizes that and, arguably, it would have been more appropriate for the EU President to have first contact with Obama rather than Brown. At this moment, both Brown and Obama have pressing issues to address. So, I am not too concerned at the state of relations.

[Dalek Dave]

Perhaps he should have a Statue of Sir William Wilburforce, the man who ended Slavery. (And an Englishman).

------------------------------------ "Will you marry me? Are you rich?, Don't answer in that order" Groucho Marx

[Lost User]

Or even Thomas Paine [^], [^] who may have been the author of "African Slavery in America" which proposed the emancipation of African slaves and the abolition of slavery some years before the stance of Wilburforce.

[Stan Shannon]

Oakman wrote:

How in God's name did you leap from the two articles to that conclusion?

I think this is a clear indication that 2 + 2 does equal four after all. These two have been actively involved in black liberation theology for decades. Now we see them acting in a way that is entirely consistent with those principles. They have a seething contempt for the historic associations of the United States, and they are going to express that contempt in every manner they possibly can.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Oakman]

John Carson wrote:

There was a limited press conference

Joh, I am not a fool and neither are you. Calling what happened a press conference is putting lipstick on a pig.

John Carson wrote:

I agree that the Administration has not been misstep free

Three potential senior officials, including two who would have been Geitner's top aids withdrew their names from consideration yesterday. Either they know something we don't know about working there, or Obama has a natural affinity for picking people who cannot stand the scrutiny that nomination brings. I sincerely hope that he does recover. For better or worse, he is the leader of the U.S. and arguably the most powerful man alive. The chance that we may have sent a boy to do a man's job (of course, the only semi-viable alternative was sending a geezer to do a man's job) concerns me greatly.

John Carson wrote:

Obama is very good at recovering from missteps.

He's very good at being forgiven, much like Reagan was.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Oakman]

Please show me a citation that proves that black liberation theology says that we should dis the P.M. of the UK. Then and only then can we discuss how much of your accusation is accurate and how much represents your antipathy towards non-wasps.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[John Carson]

Dalek Dave wrote:

Perhaps he should have a Statue of Sir William Wilburforce, the man who ended Slavery. (And an Englishman).

This whole discussion is based on the nonsense of people who believe Obama is anti-British based on no good evidence. As for Wilberforce, he was a very important figure in ending slavery thoughout most of the British Empire. He certainly didn't end it worldwide.

John Carson

[Oakman]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

He wants, and rightly, to make his mark on the place

This isn't about him; it's about the United States and the United Kingdom. It is far less important that he get a big chapter in the history books than that these countries pull out of the present funk in a way that allows them to continue to exist, long after Obama, Brown, you and I are in our graves.

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

old alliances may no longer be relevant.

Sounds like the advice a parent might give a 12-year-old girl heading off to middle school for the first time; I would prefer the leadsers of two great nations to act with just a little more maturity.

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

The European Union is a bigger political/economic force than the United Kingdom alone

The EU is, in my opinion, about as healthy and likely to survive as General Motors. They have already abandoned Eastern Europe and it appears that the only thing holding it together is the alliance between Merkle and Sarkozy. Any time you have to rely on the heads of Germany and France seeing eye to eye over the long haul, you are probably in trouble. Of course, that's my opinion, from the other side of the little puddle, and worth only what you paid for it. ;)

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[John Carson]

Oakman wrote:

Joh, I am not a fool and neither are you. Calling what happened a press conference is putting lipstick on a pig.

Perhaps in this area my knowledge is lacking. Are there some rules here about minimum length of time or something in order for questioning by journalists to qualify as a press conference? Is it the manner in which questioners were selected that bothers you? In my observation, the character of press conferences varies greatly. They are not always rambunctious affairs. In any event, the issue here was supposed to one of a snub to Brown. Thus the question is not whether or not it was a "press conference" by some definition, but whether it afforded Brown an appropriate opportunity to be seen in the company of the President answering questions. As someone ignorant of the ways of polite society, I can't comment with authority on the protocol here, but it is not obvious to me that any offence was committed.

Oakman wrote:

Three potential senior officials, including two who would have been Geitner's top aids withdrew their names from consideration yesterday. Either they know something we don't know about working there, or Obama has a natural affinity for picking people who cannot stand the scrutiny that nomination brings.

I don't have any hard data on how the dropout rate for Obama compares to that of earlier Presidents. People dropping out is certainly not new, e.g., Bill Clinton's first nominee for Attorney General dropped out. Moreover, the level of scrutiny seems to go up with each new President. See here: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1208025/looking_for_a_job_obamas_hiring.html?singlepage=true&cat=31[^]

Oakman wrote:

I sincerely hope that he does recover. For better or worse, he is the leader of the U.S. and arguably the most powerful man alive. The chance that we may have sent a boy to do a man's job (of course, the only semi-viable alternative was sending a geezer to do a man's job) concerns me greatly.

These are perilous times. A concern that Obama may not be up to it is natural, given the limited opportunities th

[Lost User]

The United States and the United Kingdom have had a long history dating back to the successful voyage of the Mayflower. Yet, we have had our little difficulties over these nearly 400 years. Because there now exists a first ever non-white inhabitant in the White House, that by itself will be a chapter in the history books together with whatever he accomplishes during his tenure. There have indeed been times when the relationship between our two countries have been strained. Not just the American War of Independence but other times when strife was being conducted on the world scene, and, to some extent, during the American Civil War where British neutrality was certainly tested. I have no doubt that the United States and the United Kingdom will continue to be friends but whether this friendship will be as close in the future as it was during, for instance, the Reagan/Thatcher era remains to be seen. Where I commented about old alliances and new friends. Just because our two countries have enjoyed a certain friendship does not mean that that friendship under Obama Presidency will remain at the fore. It is possible that some new friendship could usurp what exists. And yes, I have said similar to my daughters when they moved from school to school. Maturity comes from life experiences. Obama has only held his position a few weeks and is in a learning mode of sorts. So, give him time. The EU isn't just France and Germany. They are important players and yes, there are presently some strain with the newer former Soviet block countries, but that will be resolved sooner or later in some satisfactory way. But as these nations use a common currency - the Euro - they are that much more federated than they might accept. And because of the economic power shared by EU partners, they are a match in many respects for American economic power. Thus my observation that perhaps the first delegation to Obama's Administration should come from the EU rather than UK. But I understand your view that troubles could be ahead.