Obama does something right.

Stan Shannon

Oakman wrote:

Tim makes a valid point about the number of people in the US who claim to be Christian while demonstrating that they have no idea of what the sobriquet stands for, and you can only attack him as unpatriotic? For shame, Stan, for shame.

No, he is projecting his own prejudices upon the very traditional foundations of American culture and society. I'm not the one who needs to feel shame.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Tim Craig

Stan Shannon wrote:

Is there any thing at all you like about the traditions of your country? How the hell did the Craig family sink so low?

Yes, I do, Stan. Apparently, the ones I like don't happen to be those you've ever even been exposed to. How did the Shannon family produce such a major dumbass?

"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke

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Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

No, he is projecting his own prejudices upon the very traditional foundations of American culture and society.

There are those who have said that of you. As an argument I find it weak since it requires a level of mindreading in order to be valid that the Great Kreskin never claimed to have.

Stan Shannon wrote:

I'm not the one who needs to feel shame.

No-one needs to feel shame, but some should when they turn a debate into a personal attack. Certainly I have been guilty of ad hominem posts and I have learned from realisation that I was better than what I was was posting.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Stan Shannon

The problem, Tim, is that nothing you said about the US christian community is true. You just promote that kind of hatred because it is you who are a hate mongering bigot. That was the ad hominem attack in this exchange. The christian of today are what they have always been, they live their faith as it was intended to be lived. They are generous, warm hearted, loving people. They deserved better than that kind of attack. If you don't believe that, than find a church and attend it for a while. WHy in the name of God does the fact that there would be people who have some moral objection to the use of human embryos be so objectionable? Why do you have to demonize them so? It is a good thing that people object. It is a perfectly valid political point of view. And to treat it otherwise is vile and evil of you. And I would really like to know how a Craig developed such a vitriolic animosity towards their own culture and people? Why do you hate it so much? Where the hell does it come from?

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

ANd, you , of course, are the arbiter of who is and who isn't, I suppose. I

Whatever gave you that idea? I was simply passing on to you what I know to be fact.

Stan Shannon wrote:

I am a christian

No, Stan, you are not. Until and unless you can profess the Apostle's Creed without reservation, you are, perhaps, a wannabee, but you are not a believer.

Stan Shannon wrote:

I don't need your approval one way or another.

Of course not. But counterfeiting a belief structure you cannot embrace does not seem to be something you would approve of, either.

Stan Shannon wrote:

My argument is perfectly reasonable

Only if you postulate that every quickened egg is a human being. Since I made it clear in my OP that I did not thinks that such was the case, you should have challenged me on those grounds. If you thought that somehow I would accept your redefinition of my terms without demur, you were mistaken. :) I take it that you believe that a full and complete human soul enters the egg as soon as it is fertilised, and the destruction of that egg even before it undergoes mitosis, by any means and for any reason, is the equivalent of homicide?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

That was the ad hominem attack in this exchange.

Stan, an ad hominem attack is made against someone in particular, often because of the group(s) he belongs to. Y'know: "You can't trust Oak because he knows how to quote scripture to serve his own purpose." When an attack is made against a group: "You can't trust those who profess Christianity without understanding what it means to do so," it could be considered prejudice, but not an ad hominem attack. Capiche? ;)

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Tim Craig

Stan Shannon wrote:

The christian of today are what they have always been, they live their faith as it was intended to be lived.

Yeah, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are just two perfect examples of all the christian love and tolerance.

Stan Shannon wrote:

If you don't believe that, than find a church and attend it for a while.

I've lived in this country longer than you and from all appearances my education is considerably better than yours, so why do you suppose that I'm ignorant of the churches in this country and how they operate?

Stan Shannon wrote:

And to treat it otherwise is vile and evil of you.

And for them to treat other human beings the way they do is vile and evil, too. Funny how that works. I really have a problem with people who want to force their backward moral views down my throat and then have the gall to call me vile and evil. More of that christian brotherhood of yours? :laugh:

Stan Shannon wrote:

And I would really like to know how a Craig developed such a vitriolic animosity towards their own culture and people?

Maybe the Craigs have a more enlightened view of the universe than the Shannons? I've heard nothing from you but wanting to bring back the dark ages and let the witch burnings begin.

"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke

I'm a proud denizen of the Real Soapbox[^]
ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!!!

Tim Craig

Oakman wrote:

Capiche?

Can I have some crackers with my bowl of capiche? :laugh:

"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke

I'm a proud denizen of the Real Soapbox[^]
ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!!!

Stan Shannon

Oakman wrote:

When an attack is made against a group: "You can't trust those who profess Christianity without understanding what it means to do so," it could be considered prejudice, but not an ad hominem attack.

No, I looked it up. His statement was purely ad hominem. Statement: "It is immoral to use embryos for scientific reseach" Response: "American Christians are blah blah blah..."

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Stan Shannon

Tim Craig wrote:

Maybe the Craigs have a more enlightened view of the universe than the Shannons? I've heard nothing from you but wanting to bring back the dark ages and let the witch burnings begin.

Tim, you are a perfect example of why this country is so fucked up. You know absolutely nothing abouth this country, christianity or probably much of anything else beyond what you have learned while watching movies and munching popcorn. Robertson and Falwell have absolutely nothing to do with the christian society in this country. They are not leaders of any thing other than their own congregations. You use them merely to continue to promote your own bigotry. You are the one who wants to suppress and demonize views you disagree with. I am the one who wants to include people I disagree with. As with virtually every subject, the trush is completly the opposite of virtually every point you make. And as to education, son, I will state right out in front of God and everyone, that I will challange you to take any test on any subject, of your own selection, and I will score higher on it than will you.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Stan Shannon

Oakman wrote:

No, Stan, you are not. Until and unless you can profess the Apostle's Creed without reservation, you are, perhaps, a wannabee, but you are not a believer.

How do you know I haven't? I am currently a member of the methodist church. Those fuckers are constantly reciting the creed. But not all sects follow that. Growing up as a Nazarene I don't recall ever reciting it. Baptists don't much either. I don't think any of the Calvinists sects do.

Oakman wrote:

Only if you postulate that every quickened egg is a human being.

But there are people who do, Jon. Thats the point. The state is dictating morality to them. It is taking their money and forcing them to fund activities they find to be nothing less than the production of soylent green. And you approve of that. You demonize them. You do everything possible to ensure that the state actively oppresses them.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Tim Craig

Stan Shannon wrote:

Robertson and Falwell have absolutely nothing to do with the christian society in this country. They are not leaders of any thing other than their own congregations.

Funny, they spout (or spouted in the case of the dearly departed Falwell) the same bigoted hatred of anything that doesn't agree with them that you do. They also want to see the government pushign that good ole time religion down everyone's throat just like you.

Stan Shannon wrote:

You are the one who wants to suppress and demonize views you disagree with. I am the one who wants to include people I disagree with.

That is such a joke, Stan. Do you ever go back and actually read what you've written here? I don't have any problem with people practicing their religion but I do have a problem when they want the government to tell me I need to do it with them. I have a problem with self rigthteous hypocrits like you who think they have the right to tell everyone what to do. You want to exclude people who aren't in lockstep with your ideology. How many people here have you told they should levae the country if they can't agree with you?

Stan Shannon wrote:

son

Well, boy if really think you could have fathered me long before you were born, I guess that explains your general lack of knowledge of biology.

"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke

I'm a proud denizen of the Real Soapbox[^]
ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!!!

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

Growing up as a Nazarene

I already excepted the fringe groups. The adventists may not either.

Stan Shannon wrote:

Baptists don't much either

I think you are right, actually. I shouldn't have been quite so cocksure of myself. The Baptists were the extremely strong supporters of absolute personal freedom of religion back when and would have rejected anything not specified in the Bible itself, including the creed. Ironically, they have become a group that denies the name Christian to almost anyone who questions the divine inspiration of the men who wrote the bible - even though there is no biblical evidence for that divine inspiration.

Stan Shannon wrote:

But there are people who do, Jon

Sure thing and for the last 8 years their morality has determined how this issue would be handled. Now the shoe is on the other foot and you discover it pinches. You should have been bitching just as hard about government support any scientific research in any field if you are going to complain that the Constitution doesn't give the US the power to do so - not only when your ox is gored.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Tim Craig

Oakman wrote:

Stan Shannon wrote: Growing up as a Nazarene I already excepted the fringe groups. The adventists may not either.

Are you saying my cousin's have fringe? Oh, wait. My Davey Crockett buckskin jacket had fringe. :confused:

"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke

I'm a proud denizen of the Real Soapbox[^]
ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!!!

Oakman

Tim Craig wrote:

My Davey Crockett buckskin jacket had fringe.

I had a real steerhide jacket once upon a time, with foot-long fringe down the arms. Damn thing weighed about 15 lbs. Somebody stole it. :((

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

soap brain

Stan Shannon wrote:

All what? government schools?

Of course. If it's not in the Constitution, then it must be destroyed.

Stan Shannon wrote:

The are human embryos. They are a point on a continuum of human life that we all emerged from. That deserves some amount of respect.

Of course. It would be more disrespectful, in my opinion, to just let them be tossed into the incinerator. We're respecting them enough to allow them to save people's lives.

Stan Shannon wrote:

The fact that you can be so easily convinced otherwise indicates how easy the process of dehuminization is. It is little wonder that their is such a close association politically between tis and the extermination of people by Nazis. It is a very similar process.

Phhh.

Lost User

Ravel, talking of schools. I presume the school you attend is a High School. If so, wander off to this site Microsoft's DreamSpark[^] and see if your school is on the list. If so, go get some free Microsoft Software. If not, speak to your school to get their inclusion. From the overview page "Microsoft DreamSpark enables students to download Microsoft developer and design tools at no charge. Now, for the first time, Microsoft is giving its valuable software developer and design tools directly to students worldwide at no charge! This site enables students, like you, to download professional-level Microsoft developer tools to advance your learning and skills through technical design, technology, math, science and engineering activities. " and the MS products available free of charge are ... What Microsoft software does this site offer? Currently, you can get the following Microsoft tools from DreamSpark: * Microsoft SQL Server 2008 Developer Edition * Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 Professional Edition * Microsoft Visual Studio 2008 Professional Edition * Microsoft Expression Studio 1.0 * Microsoft Expression Studio 2 Trial Edition (includes Web, Blend, Media, and Design) * Microsoft Windows Server 2003 R2 Standard Edition * Microsoft Windows Server 2008 Standard Edition * IT Academy Student Pass

soap brain

WOW! :omg: Thanks, that is so awesome! :-D I've just sent an e-mail to the top-office people and the maths/computing people asking them to sign up for it. I'm pretty sure someone will do it - from what I can tell, although I don't know why, I'm generally regarded favourably by teachers. :-O