Children of the State

Christian Graus

Some observations. 1 - " They have tested two years above their grade levels, she said." is this independantly verified ? 2 - the main reason for home schooling in the US appears to be to hide children from science. 3 - for all that, this ruling is about the parents getting divorced and one parent wanting the kids to be exposed to mainstream thought. At the core, it's probably about two people trying to hurt each other, and the judge is stuck in the middle of their decision to fight it out and use the kids to get at each other, the system has not sought out these kids and told the parents they can't home school, ( although if she's not a qualified teacher, or in some other way monitored as to the quality of education she provides, the state should be able to get involved IMO ).' Oh, assuming that all sides indeed agree that the 'children have thrived' ( I didn't see that part, but I just scanned it ), I don't see how that matters. My kids would thrive in an environment where I gave them anything they want and kept them away from outside influences that may upset them, but my job as a parent is to prepare them for life, not to just make them happy today.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Chris Austin

Christian Graus wrote:

2 - the main reason for home schooling in the US appears to be to hide children from science.

Or at least that is what seems to make the news. I am considering homeschooling my children because I want them to be exposed to math and science properly and rigorously. I don't trust public schools to not make them sit through remedial lessons just because one or two kids are slow on the uptake. I am also considering private schools but I am having a hard time finding any that aren't religious.

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

Lost User

How unlike our late Lord Chief Justice Goddard (a 'hanging judge' - no softy) who said: "You may not think this is an education, I do not think this is an education", but allowed the children to remain home schooled. (This over 50 years ago.) The State had, wisely, not legislated what an 'education' was. Does the USA specify a curriculum at State or Federal level? Does it apply to home schooling or merely state institutions? (In the UK, the National Curriculum, SATs, etc. apply to state schools.)

Bob Emmett

Christian Graus

Chris Austin wrote:

I am considering homeschooling my children because I want them to be exposed to math and science properly and rigorously

I said 'main', and I stand by that. For every person like you, there's a hundred just terrified that their kids might believe in evolution or hear rap music at school.

Chris Austin wrote:

I am also considering private schools but I am having a hard time finding any that aren't religious.

We went with a Catholic school in the end, on the basis that their beliefs are so bizarre that I don't see any problem in getting my daughter to differentiate between that and our beliefs. But, I'd have preferred a non religious private school, there just don't seem to be any.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Christian Graus

50 years ago, less child abuse was reported because of the same attitude, that parents had the right to decide what was right for their kids, and the state should not intervene.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Lost User

Christian Graus wrote:

if she's not a qualified teacher

My wife and I educated our 4 kids at home up to GCSE (school leaving) level. We are not qualified teachers.

Christian Graus wrote:

the state should be able to get involved IMO

But !IMO.

Christian Graus wrote:

gave them anything they want and kept them away from outside influences that may upset them

Never came across this in other the home ed. families. (Over 20 years and 3 different counties.) (OK, we were protecting our kids - from teachers. :) )

Bob Emmett

Chris Austin

Christian Graus wrote:

I said 'main', and I stand by that. For every person like you, there's a hundred just terrified that their kids might believe in evolution or hear rap music at school.

I don't know that I agree with your assumption. I've spoken with lots of people in the last four years about home schooling. The majority of those I've spoken with share the concern about the quality of education that I have. It may just be the circle of people I know and seek. But, my experience doesn't match your belief.

Christian Graus wrote:

But, I'd have preferred a non religious private school, there just don't seem to be any.

If I lived in NY there would be this.[^] Also, I remember that Marc C. sends his son to a private non-religious school. I wish I rememberer the name. But, when he first posted about it I recall looking it up and seeing that there are none in my area.

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

Lost User

The children were seen by the Education Authority, and were much publicized (home ed. being uncommon).

Christian Graus wrote:

less child abuse was reported because of the same attitude

And child abuse by teachers was hushed up, by the State.

Bob Emmett

Lost User

Steiner Waldorf Schools?

Christian Graus

Chris Austin wrote:

But, my experience doesn't match your belief

I have a business partner in Texas whose mother in law works at a Christian school. His experience and belief is that most home schooling in Texas is done for the reasons I stated. He also said that some states have stricter laws, others let anyone home school, the latter tend to be states where religion is the prime reason ( as it is in this case ). Am I right in thinking you're in Texas, or is it just that your last name is Austin ?

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Chris Austin

Thats it. Thanks.

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

Christian Graus

I knew a kid who went to one of those. He was one weird guy. Not that I judge the whole school by this one person, of course.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Lost User

It certainly is a different method used at such schools, and they are not the only type. Also have a "google" for Montessori Schools.

Chris Austin

Christian Graus wrote:

I have a business partner in Texas whose mother in law works at a Christian school. His experience and belief is that most home schooling in Texas is done for the reasons I stated.

Like I said, my experience doesn't match yours. Since I knew we were having a child I started researching alternatives to public schools. I started contacting homeschooling groups, and private schools. I've sat down and talked with these people at length trying to learn what they do as well as what the do and don't like about the results. Again, it may just be the people I seek out and try to avoid vs the people that your business partner associates with.

Christian Graus wrote:

He also said that some states have stricter laws, others let anyone home school, the latter tend to be states where religion is the prime reason ( as it is in this case )

I have little doubt about some of those states. When I spent some time in the 7th layer of Hell a.k.a. Southern Alabama, I ran into more than my fair share of those folks.

Christian Graus wrote:

Am I right in thinking you're in Texas, or is it just that your last name is Austin ?

I'm in Dallas but not a native Texan.

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

Christian Graus

Bob Emmett wrote:

But !IMO.

See, I'll admit that the US school system appears to be fundamentally broken, it's part of a general system that leaves the poor to suffer while the rich pay for decent services. However, if just any moron ( and this is not a personal comment, I don't pretend to know your motivations or to judge your ability to home school your kids ), can decide to teach their kids, doesn't that mean that either 1 - the job of teacher is meaningless, or 2 - some of these parents are, with whatever intention, bringing harm to their kids by failing to teach them the basic skills they will need to nagivate life ? In any case, if your schools and teachers are so bad, perhaps the problem is that people are not complaining about it ? I admit to choosing a private school, but mostly because the school my daughter was headed to in the public system, most girls leave early to have their babies and go on welfare.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Chris Austin

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

It certainly is a different method used at such schools, and they are not the only type. Also have a "google" for Montessori Schools.

Montessori schools tend to be highly respected for the quality of education. But, people are free to use the name and ride the coat tales of the reputation.

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

Christian Graus

OK - I'd imagine that the people you'd meet would probably tend towards the same reasons you had, but again, I'm an outsider, so perhaps his perceptions are wrong and just stories like this one ( where they do seem to apply ) feed a general stereotype.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Christian Graus

Bob Emmett wrote:

And child abuse by teachers was hushed up, by the State.

Yes, there was a general problem in society which would have been reflected in his decision as well as in the way all abuse was treated at the time.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Christian Graus

Mike, I am sorry that you pulled out one part of this story, and made it sound as if the state was stepping in to interfere with a couples desire to home school, and then took no part in the discussion.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Lost User

I take your point about morons, but that is covered by truancy laws. The State can prosecute you if they believe you to be merely keeping the children at home. We maintained a record of work undertaken, to be produced as evidence were we ever to be prosecuted. We also communicated with our Local Authority, presenting them with a summary of the work.

Christian Graus wrote:

the basic skills they will need to nagivate life

Ambition, Distraction, Uglification and Derision. (Lewis Carroll)

Christian Graus wrote:

if your schools and teachers are so bad

Not our motivation. We wanted a more flexible approach to education: today's sunny - outdoor activities; today's rainy - written work.

Christian Graus wrote:

I admit to choosing a private school, but mostly because the school my daughter was headed to in the public system, most girls leave early to have their babies and go on welfare.

Very sensible, but think of those whose income doesn't stretch to that, what is their option?

Bob Emmett