A Bin Too Far... or What a Load of Rubbish!
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This is a largely UK-centric rant, but I would like to hear some foreign opinions on whether I'm getting wound up about nothing (have we just been spoiled for years compared to other countries) or whether I have a right to be really pissed off about this. Cpians in the UK will probably have seen the recent (a couple of months back) news reports about the amount of rubbish Brits consume, the fact that 30% of it is simply newspapers which could be recycled, etc. They will also have heard government suggestions that we should pay for garbage collection beyond a set number of sacks, despite paying council tax of as much as £150 per household per year for garbage collection alone. The government are, of course, aware of the complaints that would arise from a national policy like this. What many UK Cpians might not realise is that they are already working this into the system while you're not looking. Within days of this report, Lichfield District Council distributed "brown bins" for general garden waste to be recycled. I'm not sure how widespread this is, but it affects us in a village some 5 miles out of Lichfield. This was a good idea though, until now garden waste has not been part of the natural garbage collection, you were expected to take it to the local tip. These bins have been collected every 2 weeks for a couple of months now IF you remembered to take it outside your garden on the given day (before 7 am, despite the fact that they can collect any time from 7 am to 5 pm). A month ago, new "green bins" were distributed. We all have two of these, one for plastic and glass bottles, and for drinking cans, one for cardboard and paper. These are significantly smaller than a normal bin and have no lid (leading to a need to clean them if it rains on collection day), but I can usually pack a week's worth of recylables into them. They are collected every Friday but again you have to remember to take it outside or you're stuck next week. Of course, you can throw out your recyclables with the normal trash for that week. Now they've distributed "black bins" which are for everything not included with brown or green bins. They're standard wheelie bins which will be collected every two weeks, alternate with the brown bins. I am concerned that sometimes we will consume more rubbish than that in two weeks, especially if I ever forget to take out the right bin for the right day of the week. So I called the council up and asked them how I could go about buying a second bin for emergencies. I'm happy t
you could secretly stuff some of it in your neighbor's bin. :) or if you find a neighbor who never fills their bin, you could pay them a small fee to use some of their space. that way you get to pollute more than the govt says you should. that's how the power companies here in the US do it anyway: efficient companies sell their unused pollution 'credits' to other companies that can't/won't meet efficiency standards. laws skirted, pollution encouraged, everyone wins! (except the people downwind from the mid-west, of course) -c
"Kate said / The flowers of intolerance and hatred / Are blooimg kind of early this year / Someone's been watering them. -- Robyn Hitchcock, Devil's Radio
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This is a largely UK-centric rant, but I would like to hear some foreign opinions on whether I'm getting wound up about nothing (have we just been spoiled for years compared to other countries) or whether I have a right to be really pissed off about this. Cpians in the UK will probably have seen the recent (a couple of months back) news reports about the amount of rubbish Brits consume, the fact that 30% of it is simply newspapers which could be recycled, etc. They will also have heard government suggestions that we should pay for garbage collection beyond a set number of sacks, despite paying council tax of as much as £150 per household per year for garbage collection alone. The government are, of course, aware of the complaints that would arise from a national policy like this. What many UK Cpians might not realise is that they are already working this into the system while you're not looking. Within days of this report, Lichfield District Council distributed "brown bins" for general garden waste to be recycled. I'm not sure how widespread this is, but it affects us in a village some 5 miles out of Lichfield. This was a good idea though, until now garden waste has not been part of the natural garbage collection, you were expected to take it to the local tip. These bins have been collected every 2 weeks for a couple of months now IF you remembered to take it outside your garden on the given day (before 7 am, despite the fact that they can collect any time from 7 am to 5 pm). A month ago, new "green bins" were distributed. We all have two of these, one for plastic and glass bottles, and for drinking cans, one for cardboard and paper. These are significantly smaller than a normal bin and have no lid (leading to a need to clean them if it rains on collection day), but I can usually pack a week's worth of recylables into them. They are collected every Friday but again you have to remember to take it outside or you're stuck next week. Of course, you can throw out your recyclables with the normal trash for that week. Now they've distributed "black bins" which are for everything not included with brown or green bins. They're standard wheelie bins which will be collected every two weeks, alternate with the brown bins. I am concerned that sometimes we will consume more rubbish than that in two weeks, especially if I ever forget to take out the right bin for the right day of the week. So I called the council up and asked them how I could go about buying a second bin for emergencies. I'm happy t
Paul Riley wrote: council tax of as much as £150 per household per year for garbage collection alone Actually, that also covers other services such as the police, local council services etc. We have different coloured recycling box's here in Sussex as well. As a family I also visit the local bottle bank, can bank and cardboard shack to recycle quite a lot of the rubbish generated. Paul Riley wrote: Ignoring the fact that this is likely to lead to "bin theft" This has happened to me before, when the wheeley bin from my rented flat got nicked even though it had the address/number painted on it! :mad: Recycling : There's not enough of it. People who produce stuff should also switch to bio-degradable material for packaging instead of using colourful plastic for everything. :( The UK needs a unified policy on recycling and how its implemented as well. Roger Allen Sonork 100.10016 I think I need a new quote, I am on the prowl, so look out for a soft cute furry looking animal, which is really a Hippo in disguise. Its probably me.
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Paul Riley wrote: council tax of as much as £150 per household per year for garbage collection alone Actually, that also covers other services such as the police, local council services etc. We have different coloured recycling box's here in Sussex as well. As a family I also visit the local bottle bank, can bank and cardboard shack to recycle quite a lot of the rubbish generated. Paul Riley wrote: Ignoring the fact that this is likely to lead to "bin theft" This has happened to me before, when the wheeley bin from my rented flat got nicked even though it had the address/number painted on it! :mad: Recycling : There's not enough of it. People who produce stuff should also switch to bio-degradable material for packaging instead of using colourful plastic for everything. :( The UK needs a unified policy on recycling and how its implemented as well. Roger Allen Sonork 100.10016 I think I need a new quote, I am on the prowl, so look out for a soft cute furry looking animal, which is really a Hippo in disguise. Its probably me.
Roger Allen wrote: Actually, that also covers other services such as the police, local council services etc. No, that's what my full £800 a year council tax goes to; the breakdown shows £150 to garbage collection this year. I remember because it came through the same day I saw the reports about paying for extra bags of rubbish. Roger Allen wrote: Recycling : There's not enough of it. I actually agree with you there and readily even admit that I'm not good at it. The problem is that it's impossible to find somewhere to recycle everything. Also I go through a lot of cans of Pepsi Max at work, the only recycling bin they have is for Aluminium cans; Pepsi Max is Steel. I simply can't be bothered to take them home and find somewhere to recycle them. So yes, the green bins are a great thing. I'm sure I said that ;) But I think an even better idea would be to employ people to sort the rubbish out at the dump. Make it a community service, make it mandatory for people on the dole for too long, whatever... Paul
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you could secretly stuff some of it in your neighbor's bin. :) or if you find a neighbor who never fills their bin, you could pay them a small fee to use some of their space. that way you get to pollute more than the govt says you should. that's how the power companies here in the US do it anyway: efficient companies sell their unused pollution 'credits' to other companies that can't/won't meet efficiency standards. laws skirted, pollution encouraged, everyone wins! (except the people downwind from the mid-west, of course) -c
"Kate said / The flowers of intolerance and hatred / Are blooimg kind of early this year / Someone's been watering them. -- Robyn Hitchcock, Devil's Radio
Chris Losinger wrote: you could secretly stuff some of it in your neighbor's bin. Don't think I haven't considered this already, even more so the idea of buying someone else's space. My next door neighbour is a single old woman who won't use much space (except for cat food cans) and could do with the cash. I just object to having to go that far. Paul
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This is a largely UK-centric rant, but I would like to hear some foreign opinions on whether I'm getting wound up about nothing (have we just been spoiled for years compared to other countries) or whether I have a right to be really pissed off about this. Cpians in the UK will probably have seen the recent (a couple of months back) news reports about the amount of rubbish Brits consume, the fact that 30% of it is simply newspapers which could be recycled, etc. They will also have heard government suggestions that we should pay for garbage collection beyond a set number of sacks, despite paying council tax of as much as £150 per household per year for garbage collection alone. The government are, of course, aware of the complaints that would arise from a national policy like this. What many UK Cpians might not realise is that they are already working this into the system while you're not looking. Within days of this report, Lichfield District Council distributed "brown bins" for general garden waste to be recycled. I'm not sure how widespread this is, but it affects us in a village some 5 miles out of Lichfield. This was a good idea though, until now garden waste has not been part of the natural garbage collection, you were expected to take it to the local tip. These bins have been collected every 2 weeks for a couple of months now IF you remembered to take it outside your garden on the given day (before 7 am, despite the fact that they can collect any time from 7 am to 5 pm). A month ago, new "green bins" were distributed. We all have two of these, one for plastic and glass bottles, and for drinking cans, one for cardboard and paper. These are significantly smaller than a normal bin and have no lid (leading to a need to clean them if it rains on collection day), but I can usually pack a week's worth of recylables into them. They are collected every Friday but again you have to remember to take it outside or you're stuck next week. Of course, you can throw out your recyclables with the normal trash for that week. Now they've distributed "black bins" which are for everything not included with brown or green bins. They're standard wheelie bins which will be collected every two weeks, alternate with the brown bins. I am concerned that sometimes we will consume more rubbish than that in two weeks, especially if I ever forget to take out the right bin for the right day of the week. So I called the council up and asked them how I could go about buying a second bin for emergencies. I'm happy t
Don't worry you get used to it quickly. We have it since about 10 years, and when many towns played Atlantis in August, people were sorting their garbage just after losing their house to the floods. Common lore has it that the "green bin" (plastics and combineds) are sent to China for post-sorting. Talk about ecology here.
One day I might find it quite amusing how touching tongues make life so confusing Anne Clark again [sighist]
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Don't worry you get used to it quickly. We have it since about 10 years, and when many towns played Atlantis in August, people were sorting their garbage just after losing their house to the floods. Common lore has it that the "green bin" (plastics and combineds) are sent to China for post-sorting. Talk about ecology here.
One day I might find it quite amusing how touching tongues make life so confusing Anne Clark again [sighist]
Okay, so I'm calming down a little, though I still see no reason why I shouldn't posess a spare bin should I choose to. These are my real grievances here 1) I suggest that I have the right to throw money at a problem and make it go away if it harms no one else. 2) I KNOW that my council tax will actually go UP next year as a result of making my life more complicated. But seeing as you've been dealing with this for a while, let me ask you... what do you do if you overload your enforced trash-limit in a given week? Do you store it up or do you try to find someone else's bin to use? And how do you secure your bins from theft? Crime isn't exactly rife round here, but this strikes me as the sort of petty crime that will pick up very quickly. Paul
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Paul Riley wrote: council tax of as much as £150 per household per year for garbage collection alone Actually, that also covers other services such as the police, local council services etc. We have different coloured recycling box's here in Sussex as well. As a family I also visit the local bottle bank, can bank and cardboard shack to recycle quite a lot of the rubbish generated. Paul Riley wrote: Ignoring the fact that this is likely to lead to "bin theft" This has happened to me before, when the wheeley bin from my rented flat got nicked even though it had the address/number painted on it! :mad: Recycling : There's not enough of it. People who produce stuff should also switch to bio-degradable material for packaging instead of using colourful plastic for everything. :( The UK needs a unified policy on recycling and how its implemented as well. Roger Allen Sonork 100.10016 I think I need a new quote, I am on the prowl, so look out for a soft cute furry looking animal, which is really a Hippo in disguise. Its probably me.
Roger Allen wrote: Recycling : There's not enough of it. I object to end form of cycling being imposed, no matter how it is dressed up with fancy names. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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This is a largely UK-centric rant, but I would like to hear some foreign opinions on whether I'm getting wound up about nothing (have we just been spoiled for years compared to other countries) or whether I have a right to be really pissed off about this. Cpians in the UK will probably have seen the recent (a couple of months back) news reports about the amount of rubbish Brits consume, the fact that 30% of it is simply newspapers which could be recycled, etc. They will also have heard government suggestions that we should pay for garbage collection beyond a set number of sacks, despite paying council tax of as much as £150 per household per year for garbage collection alone. The government are, of course, aware of the complaints that would arise from a national policy like this. What many UK Cpians might not realise is that they are already working this into the system while you're not looking. Within days of this report, Lichfield District Council distributed "brown bins" for general garden waste to be recycled. I'm not sure how widespread this is, but it affects us in a village some 5 miles out of Lichfield. This was a good idea though, until now garden waste has not been part of the natural garbage collection, you were expected to take it to the local tip. These bins have been collected every 2 weeks for a couple of months now IF you remembered to take it outside your garden on the given day (before 7 am, despite the fact that they can collect any time from 7 am to 5 pm). A month ago, new "green bins" were distributed. We all have two of these, one for plastic and glass bottles, and for drinking cans, one for cardboard and paper. These are significantly smaller than a normal bin and have no lid (leading to a need to clean them if it rains on collection day), but I can usually pack a week's worth of recylables into them. They are collected every Friday but again you have to remember to take it outside or you're stuck next week. Of course, you can throw out your recyclables with the normal trash for that week. Now they've distributed "black bins" which are for everything not included with brown or green bins. They're standard wheelie bins which will be collected every two weeks, alternate with the brown bins. I am concerned that sometimes we will consume more rubbish than that in two weeks, especially if I ever forget to take out the right bin for the right day of the week. So I called the council up and asked them how I could go about buying a second bin for emergencies. I'm happy t
I think there is some valuable area for private enterprise to solve the problem. Having rules about how much trash each household can produce is absurd, Akl NZ has done the same silliness. You could use an independant contractor, but they are hardly likely to recycle. :-) Or you could create a machine to pelletise and densly pack your rubbish, so you could get more into a bin. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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This is a largely UK-centric rant, but I would like to hear some foreign opinions on whether I'm getting wound up about nothing (have we just been spoiled for years compared to other countries) or whether I have a right to be really pissed off about this. Cpians in the UK will probably have seen the recent (a couple of months back) news reports about the amount of rubbish Brits consume, the fact that 30% of it is simply newspapers which could be recycled, etc. They will also have heard government suggestions that we should pay for garbage collection beyond a set number of sacks, despite paying council tax of as much as £150 per household per year for garbage collection alone. The government are, of course, aware of the complaints that would arise from a national policy like this. What many UK Cpians might not realise is that they are already working this into the system while you're not looking. Within days of this report, Lichfield District Council distributed "brown bins" for general garden waste to be recycled. I'm not sure how widespread this is, but it affects us in a village some 5 miles out of Lichfield. This was a good idea though, until now garden waste has not been part of the natural garbage collection, you were expected to take it to the local tip. These bins have been collected every 2 weeks for a couple of months now IF you remembered to take it outside your garden on the given day (before 7 am, despite the fact that they can collect any time from 7 am to 5 pm). A month ago, new "green bins" were distributed. We all have two of these, one for plastic and glass bottles, and for drinking cans, one for cardboard and paper. These are significantly smaller than a normal bin and have no lid (leading to a need to clean them if it rains on collection day), but I can usually pack a week's worth of recylables into them. They are collected every Friday but again you have to remember to take it outside or you're stuck next week. Of course, you can throw out your recyclables with the normal trash for that week. Now they've distributed "black bins" which are for everything not included with brown or green bins. They're standard wheelie bins which will be collected every two weeks, alternate with the brown bins. I am concerned that sometimes we will consume more rubbish than that in two weeks, especially if I ever forget to take out the right bin for the right day of the week. So I called the council up and asked them how I could go about buying a second bin for emergencies. I'm happy t
The best solution would be to make it pay to recycle, in a way this is kind of like the "pay if you generate too much" appraoch... You pay, say, £5 a week on top of what you normally pay for refuse collection as a desposit on your recyclable waste and get it refunded as a credit for your council tax if you recycle *anything* each week for up to a year. Although it may sound like a lot of money, providing you constantly recycle something then you will never have to pay more than your initial £5 to cover the specialist collection services each year. The cost can of course be tailored to your personal circumstances by the council (i.e. subsidised for elderly people, families on low incomes, etc), and you should only be charged if you are also disposing or normal tipped refuse the same week (to avoid being charged when on holiday, etc). Random checks should also be carried out on addresses' tipped refuse to ensure a good proporition of recyclable waste is being singled out for specalist collection, and if found to be unreasonably disproprotional the weekly rate should increase appropriately. Thus people are encouranged to doa good job at recycling. I would imagine that a radio chip would be the best solution and could be read and handled as easily as the tracking system (barcode read) used by all the parcel carrier firms. What are your opinions?
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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I think there is some valuable area for private enterprise to solve the problem. Having rules about how much trash each household can produce is absurd, Akl NZ has done the same silliness. You could use an independant contractor, but they are hardly likely to recycle. :-) Or you could create a machine to pelletise and densly pack your rubbish, so you could get more into a bin. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin^Davies wrote: I think there is some valuable area for private enterprise to solve the problem. Yeah... stealing bins and selling them out to other people. If you steal them all, everyone has to request a new bin, then you can sell them back and everyone has two :) Colin^Davies wrote: Or you could create a machine to pelletise and densly pack your rubbish, so you could get more into a bin. Or if I can pack it densely enough and store it for a few million years, I've got a diamond :) Or even better if I pack it really really densely I can make a black hole to store my rubbish in :-D Paul
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The best solution would be to make it pay to recycle, in a way this is kind of like the "pay if you generate too much" appraoch... You pay, say, £5 a week on top of what you normally pay for refuse collection as a desposit on your recyclable waste and get it refunded as a credit for your council tax if you recycle *anything* each week for up to a year. Although it may sound like a lot of money, providing you constantly recycle something then you will never have to pay more than your initial £5 to cover the specialist collection services each year. The cost can of course be tailored to your personal circumstances by the council (i.e. subsidised for elderly people, families on low incomes, etc), and you should only be charged if you are also disposing or normal tipped refuse the same week (to avoid being charged when on holiday, etc). Random checks should also be carried out on addresses' tipped refuse to ensure a good proporition of recyclable waste is being singled out for specalist collection, and if found to be unreasonably disproprotional the weekly rate should increase appropriately. Thus people are encouranged to doa good job at recycling. I would imagine that a radio chip would be the best solution and could be read and handled as easily as the tracking system (barcode read) used by all the parcel carrier firms. What are your opinions?
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
David, I do agree with you that solutions to problems like this should generally be positive, not negative. But they're not even saying now that they will charge us for extra refuge, they're saying "if you've got too much, tough shit!" The only option you then have is to pack it in the back of the car - meaning you've either stored it in the house (eew!) or in the rain (not in my car!). Then you have to take it to the local tip where (in our case at least) the speed bumps are so high that I've been forced into 3 exhaust repairs as a direct result of going there. As for radio chips, I really think they could be a big benefit here. See my previous post. Paul
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This is a largely UK-centric rant, but I would like to hear some foreign opinions on whether I'm getting wound up about nothing (have we just been spoiled for years compared to other countries) or whether I have a right to be really pissed off about this. Cpians in the UK will probably have seen the recent (a couple of months back) news reports about the amount of rubbish Brits consume, the fact that 30% of it is simply newspapers which could be recycled, etc. They will also have heard government suggestions that we should pay for garbage collection beyond a set number of sacks, despite paying council tax of as much as £150 per household per year for garbage collection alone. The government are, of course, aware of the complaints that would arise from a national policy like this. What many UK Cpians might not realise is that they are already working this into the system while you're not looking. Within days of this report, Lichfield District Council distributed "brown bins" for general garden waste to be recycled. I'm not sure how widespread this is, but it affects us in a village some 5 miles out of Lichfield. This was a good idea though, until now garden waste has not been part of the natural garbage collection, you were expected to take it to the local tip. These bins have been collected every 2 weeks for a couple of months now IF you remembered to take it outside your garden on the given day (before 7 am, despite the fact that they can collect any time from 7 am to 5 pm). A month ago, new "green bins" were distributed. We all have two of these, one for plastic and glass bottles, and for drinking cans, one for cardboard and paper. These are significantly smaller than a normal bin and have no lid (leading to a need to clean them if it rains on collection day), but I can usually pack a week's worth of recylables into them. They are collected every Friday but again you have to remember to take it outside or you're stuck next week. Of course, you can throw out your recyclables with the normal trash for that week. Now they've distributed "black bins" which are for everything not included with brown or green bins. They're standard wheelie bins which will be collected every two weeks, alternate with the brown bins. I am concerned that sometimes we will consume more rubbish than that in two weeks, especially if I ever forget to take out the right bin for the right day of the week. So I called the council up and asked them how I could go about buying a second bin for emergencies. I'm happy t
Explain to the dickhead what average means and ask her what the standard deviation of her research was , and what is happening to those above average but within 3 standard deviations of the average ? Oh no, you can't fool me. There ain't no Sanity Clause!
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Chris Losinger wrote: you could secretly stuff some of it in your neighbor's bin. Don't think I haven't considered this already, even more so the idea of buying someone else's space. My next door neighbour is a single old woman who won't use much space (except for cat food cans) and could do with the cash. I just object to having to go that far. Paul
I've also got a nice old lady next door, who'd happily let me use her bin in such a situation. The problem is that this would turn the 30 second job of putting the rubbish out into over an hour, as it always feels rude to walk away when she's got so much to chat about -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
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I've also got a nice old lady next door, who'd happily let me use her bin in such a situation. The problem is that this would turn the 30 second job of putting the rubbish out into over an hour, as it always feels rude to walk away when she's got so much to chat about -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
benjymous wrote: I've also got a nice old lady next door, who'd happily let me use her bin in such a situation. The problem is that this would turn the 30 second job of putting the rubbish out into over an hour, as it always feels rude to walk away when she's got so much to chat about Okay, slightly straying off-topic here but I can't resist. The word nice doesn't apply to the old woman next door to us, the phrase "bitter old witch" is much more appropriate. We managed not to speak to each other for over 6 years because she souldn't stop spreading rumours about my wife, who she's known for most of her life. We've only started clearing things up over the last two months but she's currently bending over backwards to be nice to us and she has a reputation for doing anything for a few quid (hideous as the implications of this statement may be :omg::-D). In all honesty, all our neighbours have started being obscenely nice lately. A few weeks ago I forgot to take our brown bin out - no big deal, there wasn't much in it - and one guy who's good friends with the old witch (and thus has been cold to us at best) dragged it out for us and even brought it back in the evening. It's kind of scary - a bit of a Stepford Wives / Disturbing Behaviour vibe with a Cocoon twist going on around here over the last couple of months. :cool: It probably has a lot to do with word getting out that we've bought the house on the Right to Buy scheme and they've realised we're just not going to be driven out no matter how much they might want it. :suss: Paul
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Explain to the dickhead what average means and ask her what the standard deviation of her research was , and what is happening to those above average but within 3 standard deviations of the average ? Oh no, you can't fool me. There ain't no Sanity Clause!
I really did consider going down that road but the silly bint was already flustered enough. "I'll just get my supervisor... oh, no, sorry, my supervisor is busy... errm... well, yes, you could look at it that way, sir." :laugh: Paul
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benjymous wrote: I've also got a nice old lady next door, who'd happily let me use her bin in such a situation. The problem is that this would turn the 30 second job of putting the rubbish out into over an hour, as it always feels rude to walk away when she's got so much to chat about Okay, slightly straying off-topic here but I can't resist. The word nice doesn't apply to the old woman next door to us, the phrase "bitter old witch" is much more appropriate. We managed not to speak to each other for over 6 years because she souldn't stop spreading rumours about my wife, who she's known for most of her life. We've only started clearing things up over the last two months but she's currently bending over backwards to be nice to us and she has a reputation for doing anything for a few quid (hideous as the implications of this statement may be :omg::-D). In all honesty, all our neighbours have started being obscenely nice lately. A few weeks ago I forgot to take our brown bin out - no big deal, there wasn't much in it - and one guy who's good friends with the old witch (and thus has been cold to us at best) dragged it out for us and even brought it back in the evening. It's kind of scary - a bit of a Stepford Wives / Disturbing Behaviour vibe with a Cocoon twist going on around here over the last couple of months. :cool: It probably has a lot to do with word getting out that we've bought the house on the Right to Buy scheme and they've realised we're just not going to be driven out no matter how much they might want it. :suss: Paul
Sounds like your neighbourhood has had a visit from the pod people :wtf: -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!