Is Taxation Voluntary?

Ilion

Harry Reid: "I don't accept your phraseology"[^]

Lost User

I always enjoy a good debate. :laugh: The Leader of the Pack. :(

Bob Emmett

thrakazog

Dear Harry Reid, Please go chase a car that is heading toward you. Thanks, America.

realJSOP

Technically, the government is voluntarily taxing us. We are not voluntarily paying that those taxes. Harry Reid is a typical politician - when an argument doesn't go his way, he tries to talk about something else and/or pretends to not understand the question.

"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001

Ilion

John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:

when an argument doesn't go his way, he tries to talk about something else and/or pretends to not understand the question.

Just so.

martin_hughes

I sort of got what Reid's point was. In the UK, for example, there is what's called Pay As You Earn (PAYE) where one's employer is responsible for deducting and remitting to the Inland Revenue Income Tax, National Insurance and in some cases other payments and then paying the balance to the employee; whereas in the US, it's down to the employee to account for and submit the tax to the IRS. I wouldn't exactly call the US system voluntary, mind. A US citizen could choose not to submit a tax return, but I hear the consequences are somewhat severe... It doesn't help that the man could enter and probably win "Mumbler of the Year 2009".

print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?

Mike Gaskey

Sorry, I simply can't watch Reid without puking, but he actually has a point whether he realized it or not. After income tax was made legitimate via the 16th amendment (although there's an active theory that says it was never ratified), the enabling legislation stated that: The Secretary of the Treasury shall assess a you shall pay ... So it really is voluntary because the only time you should really file a tax return is when you dispute the assessment. got an assessment from the Secretary lately? the anser is NO. we in the US of A have been conned into voluntary compliance, assessing ourselves via form 1040 or the short form, whichever you use. don't believe me? then check your 1040 booklet at look at the listing of fines, etc. you'll see a fine for: filing fraudently, filing late - but nothing for not filing.

Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.

Rob Graham

Most salaried employees in the US are treated precisely as you describe happening in the U.K>. the Government requires that employers deduct taxes from each paycheck and submit them to the IRS. Self employed workers are required to do the same, but must remit only quarterly. Anyone choosing to not submit a tax return is either hiding illicit income, or is claiming exemptions from the withholding that are not supportable. Usually the big fish with illicit income get away with tax evasion (look at our current Treasury Secretary for an excellent example), and the small fish are hammered by the IRS.

Rob Graham

Mike Gaskey wrote:

the

The problem is that the vast majority are over a barrel: their employer collects the taxes before the employee ever sees it, and not filing is less of an option. This will make me think about ramping up my claimed exemptions to the max, and stopping filing. I would at least minimize what the Fed and State collect. Another weapon to remember for the future...

Christian Graus

While that's interesting, it doesn't really change anything. How would your country exist without taxes ?

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Oakman

Rob Graham wrote:

Another weapon to remember for the future

Any of the Mossberg 590's are good to have around, too.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

martin_hughes

I didn't know PAYE had been implemented in the US. Interesting. Very interesting.

print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?

martin_hughes

The question the conspiracists ask is how did the US exist before the Income Tax. I'm certain I don't know, and given income tax has been a British institution since medieval times I'm sure I'm not the best person to answer it either. But it's interesting nonetheless.

print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?

Christian Graus

The answer is obvious. They existed without centralised government because they were not a superpower, and were not bent on creating a world wide empire. They also didn't have any forms of welfare, because life was a lot simpler, and more community based.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Ilion

martin_hughes wrote:

I sort of got what Reid's point was. ...

But his "point" was to use equivocation (i.e. intellectual dishonesty) to deny that the question being asked him was even valid.

martin_hughes

I'm not so sure about that. The US of A certainly had imperialistic tenancies well before the income tax (Andrew Jackson et al), but it's intriguing that Income Tax was such a late addition to the statute books in the US.

print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?

Ilion

Mike Gaskey wrote:

Sorry, I simply can't watch Reid without puking, ...

I had a similar reaction, an immediate and visceral disgust with the man.

Christian Graus

Mike and Ilion, in a tree.....

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Christian Graus

yeah, perhaps, but if they did, it would not be on the scale, or the financial cost to maintain, that they have today. It's a cheap shot, there's plenty of other things they need to pay for that require taxes.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

martin_hughes

Ilíon wrote:

But his "point" was to use equivocation (i.e. intellectual dishonesty) to deny that the question being asked him was even valid.

From what Rob was saying up-yonder, it appears my view of the US tax system is out of date, however I've yet to come across a politician who doesn't do that. But yeah - the man is clearly trying to use language to bamboozle rather than to edify.

print "http://www.codeproject.com".toURL().text Ain't that Groovy?