One thing Obama IS good at.
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Kicking the crap out of the stock market. the Wagoner assassination/Federal Motors plan sure thrilled Wall street. Looks like we'll be giving back all of last month's gains pretty quickly. Will you be buying a car from FM?
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Kicking the crap out of the stock market. the Wagoner assassination/Federal Motors plan sure thrilled Wall street. Looks like we'll be giving back all of last month's gains pretty quickly. Will you be buying a car from FM?
Rob Graham wrote:
Kicking the crap out of the stock market.
Looks like they're going to kick the crap out of anyone crazy enough to have loaned money to GM in the last ten years; and the UAW has been put on notice that whatever the concessions they made to Waggonner weren't enough. It appears that the ultimatum is pretty much accept that bondholders must accept 10 cents on the dollar loaned, GM must unilaterally cut retirees benefits, and the UAW accept a big cut workers' payroll (and work rules?) or they'll be ordered to declare bankruptcy. So much for contracts being important.
Rob Graham wrote:
Will you be buying a car from FM
Did you know that until 1950 there was a truck manufacturer called Federal Motors[(video)^]? "It hauls up the hard hills!" Federal Motors didn't survive, once the USA started being an importer instead of an exporter of vehicles.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Kicking the crap out of the stock market. the Wagoner assassination/Federal Motors plan sure thrilled Wall street. Looks like we'll be giving back all of last month's gains pretty quickly. Will you be buying a car from FM?
Rob Graham wrote:
Will you be buying a car from FM?
nope, saving my money for arms and ammo. this idiot is flushing the nation and the Constituition down the toilet, I'd say the outloook is pretty grim and possibly Mad Max like.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Rob Graham wrote:
Kicking the crap out of the stock market.
Looks like they're going to kick the crap out of anyone crazy enough to have loaned money to GM in the last ten years; and the UAW has been put on notice that whatever the concessions they made to Waggonner weren't enough. It appears that the ultimatum is pretty much accept that bondholders must accept 10 cents on the dollar loaned, GM must unilaterally cut retirees benefits, and the UAW accept a big cut workers' payroll (and work rules?) or they'll be ordered to declare bankruptcy. So much for contracts being important.
Rob Graham wrote:
Will you be buying a car from FM
Did you know that until 1950 there was a truck manufacturer called Federal Motors[(video)^]? "It hauls up the hard hills!" Federal Motors didn't survive, once the USA started being an importer instead of an exporter of vehicles.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
The part I least understand is Chrysler being forced to merge with Fiat. Why Fiat, an Non-US company? Why not GM or Ford (although since Ford isn't taking handouts, the Feds have no less leverage over them)? How do they rationalize sharing taxpayer dollars with Fiat, an Italian company, and when do you expect to see the first lawsuit?
modified on Monday, March 30, 2009 12:02 PM
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Rob Graham wrote:
Will you be buying a car from FM?
nope, saving my money for arms and ammo. this idiot is flushing the nation and the Constituition down the toilet, I'd say the outloook is pretty grim and possibly Mad Max like.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Yep. My employer (a large US multi-national conglomerate) just ordered an across the board 10% pay cut (all exempt and non-exempt, implemented as unpaid mandatory leave where necessary). Things are looking grim.
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Yep. My employer (a large US multi-national conglomerate) just ordered an across the board 10% pay cut (all exempt and non-exempt, implemented as unpaid mandatory leave where necessary). Things are looking grim.
Rob Graham wrote:
Things are looking grim
yep. Before I retired at the beginning of the year, the company I worked for (also a large international company, which includes several offshore components: India, South Africa, and in a couple of East European countries) required a significant number of folks to take a mandatory 1 week vacation then stopped accruing vacation time. There's a another large company with a significant component in town that eliminated raises for 2008 / 2009. both of the above companies have in excess of 60,000 employees.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Rob Graham wrote:
Things are looking grim
yep. Before I retired at the beginning of the year, the company I worked for (also a large international company, which includes several offshore components: India, South Africa, and in a couple of East European countries) required a significant number of folks to take a mandatory 1 week vacation then stopped accruing vacation time. There's a another large company with a significant component in town that eliminated raises for 2008 / 2009. both of the above companies have in excess of 60,000 employees.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Yeah, the raises were already gone in January. The mandatory unpaid leave/pay cut came last week. >120,000 employees world wide. They're trying their best to avoid layoffs, but if things continue to worsen... Fortunately I moved my 401k to short term cash equivalents right after the Countrywide debacle, so retirement is still a viable option...
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Yep. My employer (a large US multi-national conglomerate) just ordered an across the board 10% pay cut (all exempt and non-exempt, implemented as unpaid mandatory leave where necessary). Things are looking grim.
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Rob Graham wrote:
Things are looking grim.
You mean you have not always wanted to live through the last days of the Weimar Republic???
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Yeah. Screw the "interesting times" crap, give me back boring old prosperity any day.
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The part I least understand is Chrysler being forced to merge with Fiat. Why Fiat, an Non-US company? Why not GM or Ford (although since Ford isn't taking handouts, the Feds have no less leverage over them)? How do they rationalize sharing taxpayer dollars with Fiat, an Italian company, and when do you expect to see the first lawsuit?
modified on Monday, March 30, 2009 12:02 PM
Rob Graham wrote:
How do they rationalize sharing taxpayer dollars with Fiat, an Italian company
Careful, you'll be called a protectionist. Only the EU member states are allowed to refuse to give money to foreign companies. But to answer your question, I am not sure they are rationalizing anything any more. And, in actuality, they may not need to. I suspect that John Q. Public is getting tired of all the ends and out and ups and downs of the dozens of action-items Obama is juggling. Any uproar over this will soon be buried in the breathless reporting we can expect re: his triumphal return to Europe - where he will accomplish absolutely nothing, but have his ass kissed many times. Andrea Merkel replied, when asked if she thought Obama's spending plan was a good one. "I will do anything for love, but I won't do that."
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Yeah. Screw the "interesting times" crap, give me back boring old prosperity any day.
Rob Graham wrote:
Screw the "interesting times" crap
I'm not sure whether Zhou Xiaochuan agrees or disagrees. But 'twill be interesting to see what if anything happens with the idea of turning SDRs into a new currency. It seemed to me that more than once the Bush administration acted against America's long-term best interests simply to placate their banker. Will Obama and Geithner either go along with or not object to the plan for the same reasons?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Rob Graham wrote:
Screw the "interesting times" crap
I'm not sure whether Zhou Xiaochuan agrees or disagrees. But 'twill be interesting to see what if anything happens with the idea of turning SDRs into a new currency. It seemed to me that more than once the Bush administration acted against America's long-term best interests simply to placate their banker. Will Obama and Geithner either go along with or not object to the plan for the same reasons?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
er. Will Obama and Geithner either go along
The real question is "do they have any other choice?" I don't think we know the whole story here, either on the real state of the economy, or on China's assessment of what best suits their interest (I'm dead certain our best interests are irrelevant to them). Put yourself in Zhou's shoes. What would you do. It's not a fun exercise from where I sit. Learning Mandarin might not be a bad backup plan...
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Oakman wrote:
er. Will Obama and Geithner either go along
The real question is "do they have any other choice?" I don't think we know the whole story here, either on the real state of the economy, or on China's assessment of what best suits their interest (I'm dead certain our best interests are irrelevant to them). Put yourself in Zhou's shoes. What would you do. It's not a fun exercise from where I sit. Learning Mandarin might not be a bad backup plan...
Rob Graham wrote:
I don't think we know the whole story here, either on the real state of the economy
When does transparency not mean transparency, is no longer a riddle, eh?
Rob Graham wrote:
Put yourself in Zhou's shoes
Nope, they were probably made in China for people with slanted toenails.
Rob Graham wrote:
What would you do.
I think he knows what he should do - just as Obama does; just a Merkle does; just as Putin does. The question is whether he thinks his country would survive the crash more or less intact and (more importantly as far as he is concerned) whether he thinks he has the political capital to survive with his status more or less intact. My guess is that Obama and Merkle have already decided to, as Paul Krugman said in the NYTimes yesterday, rearrange the deck chairs, while Putin works to consolodate his power expecting someone else to trigger Armageddon. But what decision a technocrat like Zhou makes is impossible for me to say. The eight-ball says "Outlook Hazy - try again later."
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Rob Graham wrote:
I don't think we know the whole story here, either on the real state of the economy
When does transparency not mean transparency, is no longer a riddle, eh?
Rob Graham wrote:
Put yourself in Zhou's shoes
Nope, they were probably made in China for people with slanted toenails.
Rob Graham wrote:
What would you do.
I think he knows what he should do - just as Obama does; just a Merkle does; just as Putin does. The question is whether he thinks his country would survive the crash more or less intact and (more importantly as far as he is concerned) whether he thinks he has the political capital to survive with his status more or less intact. My guess is that Obama and Merkle have already decided to, as Paul Krugman said in the NYTimes yesterday, rearrange the deck chairs, while Putin works to consolodate his power expecting someone else to trigger Armageddon. But what decision a technocrat like Zhou makes is impossible for me to say. The eight-ball says "Outlook Hazy - try again later."
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
My guess is that Obama and Merkle have already decided to, as Paul Krugman said in the NYTimes yesterday, rearrange the deck chairs,
It is not a good thing to have bought passage on the Titanic.
Oakman wrote:
But what decision a technocrat like Zhou makes
We have a myopic tendency to view Zhou as the sole factor in China's decision making. That foolishly disregards it's recent appetite for Military power, and assigns our own tendancy to only view the relatively near term outcomes of any scenario. I am more inclined to view the Chinese as imperialists with a patient long term view, and a good grasp of historical timing.
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Oakman wrote:
My guess is that Obama and Merkle have already decided to, as Paul Krugman said in the NYTimes yesterday, rearrange the deck chairs,
It is not a good thing to have bought passage on the Titanic.
Oakman wrote:
But what decision a technocrat like Zhou makes
We have a myopic tendency to view Zhou as the sole factor in China's decision making. That foolishly disregards it's recent appetite for Military power, and assigns our own tendancy to only view the relatively near term outcomes of any scenario. I am more inclined to view the Chinese as imperialists with a patient long term view, and a good grasp of historical timing.
Rob Graham wrote:
It is not a good thing to have bought passage on the Titanic.
As Sandahl Bergman said in Conan the Barbarian: "Do you want to live forever?"
Rob Graham wrote:
I am more inclined to view the Chinese as imperialists with a patient long term view, and a good grasp of historical timing.
Looking at their history they seem to alternate periods of being very insular and trying to block out the world with periods of trying to own it. It would seem that they are not very insular these days. :~ It seems to me that the day they march into Taiwan is a good day to start a long vacation in the mountains. That's their Sudetenland and I imagine the reaction of the SEATO nations will pretty much mirror the reaction of Checkoslovakia's allies. But that China's appetite will be whetted not appeased, just as Germany's was.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Rob Graham wrote:
How do they rationalize sharing taxpayer dollars with Fiat, an Italian company
Careful, you'll be called a protectionist. Only the EU member states are allowed to refuse to give money to foreign companies. But to answer your question, I am not sure they are rationalizing anything any more. And, in actuality, they may not need to. I suspect that John Q. Public is getting tired of all the ends and out and ups and downs of the dozens of action-items Obama is juggling. Any uproar over this will soon be buried in the breathless reporting we can expect re: his triumphal return to Europe - where he will accomplish absolutely nothing, but have his ass kissed many times. Andrea Merkel replied, when asked if she thought Obama's spending plan was a good one. "I will do anything for love, but I won't do that."
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Andrea Merkel replied, when asked if she thought Obama's spending plan was a good one. "I will do anything for love, but I won't do that.
The only appropriate reply would have been Bertrand Russels: "Madame, we have already established what you are, we're just haggling over the price".
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Rob Graham wrote:
Will you be buying a car from FM?
nope, saving my money for arms and ammo. this idiot is flushing the nation and the Constituition down the toilet, I'd say the outloook is pretty grim and possibly Mad Max like.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Hey Mike, I read 'Change of Heart' at your suggestion. It was an interesting book. I'm unsure now if you were encouraging me to read it because of my religion beliefs, my beliefs on the death penalty, or my views on organ donation. Do you recall ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "I am new to programming world. I have been learning c# for about past four weeks. I am quite acquainted with the fundamentals of c#. Now I have to work on a project which converts given flat files to XML using the XML serialization method" - SK64 ( but the forums have stuff like this posted every day )
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Hey Mike, I read 'Change of Heart' at your suggestion. It was an interesting book. I'm unsure now if you were encouraging me to read it because of my religion beliefs, my beliefs on the death penalty, or my views on organ donation. Do you recall ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "I am new to programming world. I have been learning c# for about past four weeks. I am quite acquainted with the fundamentals of c#. Now I have to work on a project which converts given flat files to XML using the XML serialization method" - SK64 ( but the forums have stuff like this posted every day )
Christian Graus wrote:
"I am new to programming world. I have been learning c# for about past four weeks. I am quite acquainted with the fundamentals of c#. Now I have to work on a project which converts given flat files to XML using the XML serialization method" - SK64 ( but the forums have stuff like this posted every day )
ROFL
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Christian Graus wrote:
"I am new to programming world. I have been learning c# for about past four weeks. I am quite acquainted with the fundamentals of c#. Now I have to work on a project which converts given flat files to XML using the XML serialization method" - SK64 ( but the forums have stuff like this posted every day )
ROFL
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
I know - it's a nightmare.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "I am new to programming world. I have been learning c# for about past four weeks. I am quite acquainted with the fundamentals of c#. Now I have to work on a project which converts given flat files to XML using the XML serialization method" - SK64 ( but the forums have stuff like this posted every day )
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Rob Graham wrote:
Kicking the crap out of the stock market.
Looks like they're going to kick the crap out of anyone crazy enough to have loaned money to GM in the last ten years; and the UAW has been put on notice that whatever the concessions they made to Waggonner weren't enough. It appears that the ultimatum is pretty much accept that bondholders must accept 10 cents on the dollar loaned, GM must unilaterally cut retirees benefits, and the UAW accept a big cut workers' payroll (and work rules?) or they'll be ordered to declare bankruptcy. So much for contracts being important.
Rob Graham wrote:
Will you be buying a car from FM
Did you know that until 1950 there was a truck manufacturer called Federal Motors[(video)^]? "It hauls up the hard hills!" Federal Motors didn't survive, once the USA started being an importer instead of an exporter of vehicles.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Looks like they're going to kick the crap out of anyone crazy enough to have loaned money to GM in the last ten years; and the UAW has been put on notice that whatever the concessions they made to Waggonner weren't enough. It appears that the ultimatum is pretty much accept that bondholders must accept 10 cents on the dollar loaned, GM must unilaterally cut retirees benefits, and the UAW accept a big cut workers' payroll (and work rules?) or they'll be ordered to declare bankruptcy. So much for contracts being important.
I don't know where you get this idea that contracts are sacrosanct. Bankruptcy always involves defaulting on contractual obligations --- that is the whole point of bankruptcy --- and it is entirely routine for companies on the verge of bankruptcy to re-negotiate contracts. People agree to these re-negotiations because they figure that they will get more money that way than if the company goes bankrupt. One thing about the US system that seems strange to me is the way retiree benefits are up for negotiation. In Australia, the providers of retirement benefits are completely separate companies. Employers pay into these companies on behalf of their employees and have no claim whatsoever on the funds that are accumulated; these are solely owned by the employees.
John Carson