to smoke or not to smoke, that is that question?
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You must have been reading Joh Scalzi's "Old Man's War". If not, you should. Good book.
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I'm hoping for nanotechnology and stem cell breakthroughs that allow me a good few decades before contemplating my departure.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
medical innovation 2. lawsuit happy citizens that force dramatic increases in malpractice insurance for doctors 3. medical community that protects poor doctors (thus adding to the cost of the insurance)
I'm sure those contribute. None the less 90% of all the costs of most people's lifetime medical care occur in the last six months of their lives. I can do the math, as I am sure you can.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
but the cost is held down because of government intervention - shifting the cost to everyone else
I' told that private insurers do the same thing, insisting on sweetheart deals that mean that doctors switch some of their cost to everyone else. Sooner or later, of course, there won't be anyone else to switch to.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
cost shifting mentioned above 2. government intervention (federal and local) that mandates certain coverages 3. government intervention that requires emergency room care to whomever stumbles in, regardless of ability to pay (think illegals and dead asses), which cause yet more cost shifting
#3 is a very real problem in almost every part of the US - especially the border states and the big cities. 'Twould be really nice if someome passed a law saying that only U.S. citizens could claim benefits from the U.S. Government, wouldn't it? Apparently, in Australia, they won't let you into the country unless you have local insurance - of course, GW Bush spent 8 years sitting on his hands while illegals poured over the border and his campaign contributors got cheap labor, knowing that you and I would have to pick up their healthcare bill.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
lost, remember that God is dead
One of the disconnects I noticed about the brand of Christianity I grew up in was how much fear there was of dying. (I understand fear of pain. And I understand the agony of those left behind. I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
'Twould be really nice if someome passed a law saying that only U.S. citizens could claim benefits from the U.S. Government
Erhmmm, just because I haven't filed the paperwork for citizenship doesn't mean I don't pay those damn pesky taxes.
Oakman wrote:
I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
Perhaps they were God fearin' because of what they believed they'd done, and the consequences they suspected awaited them.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
medical innovation 2. lawsuit happy citizens that force dramatic increases in malpractice insurance for doctors 3. medical community that protects poor doctors (thus adding to the cost of the insurance)
I'm sure those contribute. None the less 90% of all the costs of most people's lifetime medical care occur in the last six months of their lives. I can do the math, as I am sure you can.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
but the cost is held down because of government intervention - shifting the cost to everyone else
I' told that private insurers do the same thing, insisting on sweetheart deals that mean that doctors switch some of their cost to everyone else. Sooner or later, of course, there won't be anyone else to switch to.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
cost shifting mentioned above 2. government intervention (federal and local) that mandates certain coverages 3. government intervention that requires emergency room care to whomever stumbles in, regardless of ability to pay (think illegals and dead asses), which cause yet more cost shifting
#3 is a very real problem in almost every part of the US - especially the border states and the big cities. 'Twould be really nice if someome passed a law saying that only U.S. citizens could claim benefits from the U.S. Government, wouldn't it? Apparently, in Australia, they won't let you into the country unless you have local insurance - of course, GW Bush spent 8 years sitting on his hands while illegals poured over the border and his campaign contributors got cheap labor, knowing that you and I would have to pick up their healthcare bill.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
lost, remember that God is dead
One of the disconnects I noticed about the brand of Christianity I grew up in was how much fear there was of dying. (I understand fear of pain. And I understand the agony of those left behind. I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
And I understand the agony of those left behind. I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
So, what exactly is your argument? Religious people should be happy to die to save the non-religious money?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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'"The natural train of logic that follows from that is that then anybody that's admitted around age 65 or older that's showing any signs of sickness should be denied treatment," Pechacek said. "That's the cheapest thing to do."' The simplest, and in many ways, most humane, thing to do is to perform triage on folks of any age who contract serious illnesses, but especially on folks over 50. Our medical costs are so high because we have adopted an attitude of "Who cares how much it costs? Give the patient another month to live!" This attitude holds true if the patient is vegetative, in extreme pain, or is simply disappearing into the fog of Alzheimer's. I have seen statistics that say that 90% of the money spent on a person's healthcare is spent in the last six months of his life. As a result medicare is expensive, private insurance is expensive, hospitals are expensive. And our taxes go up for no good reason. We would never put a beloved pet through the suffering and agony and loss of quality of life that we do our family. Where is the religion or ethical philosophy that teaches that death is a consummation, not failure?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Either health care is a fundamental human right or it is not. If it is not, than government has no business giving it to anyone in any way. If it is, the state is obligated to ensure every last possible nanosecond of moral existence to every person regardless of the expense. What needs to happen is for the government to get entirely out of the issue altogether. That would solve the entire problem.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Either health care is a fundamental human right or it is not. If it is not, than government has no business giving it to anyone in any way. If it is, the state is obligated to ensure every last possible nanosecond of moral existence to every person regardless of the expense. What needs to happen is for the government to get entirely out of the issue altogether. That would solve the entire problem.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Either health care is a fundamental human right or it is not.
it is not.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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click to article[^] I'd never considered that people living longer would cost more or even out the cost of smokers, but I still don't like going out to eat in a smoke house breathing someone else's exhaust. It partly why I never liked going out.
You just read an article justifying termination of human life based upon some kind of bureaucratic evaluation, and all you got out of it was something about smoking? :omg:
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Either health care is a fundamental human right or it is not.
it is not.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Agreed. And if they are going to treat it that way, a want to see an amendment to the constitution providing for it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Either health care is a fundamental human right or it is not.
it is not.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
What would you do then about those who get care and don't pay for it, regardless of whether or not they're citizens? If hospitals can't turn anyone away because they can't pay then what incentive is there for people who pay now to continue doing so?
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You just read an article justifying termination of human life based upon some kind of bureaucratic evaluation, and all you got out of it was something about smoking? :omg:
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
No. The way the article put the costs is what struck me. The article is about smoking costs not 'justifying termination of human life'.
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Oakman wrote:
And I understand the agony of those left behind. I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
So, what exactly is your argument? Religious people should be happy to die to save the non-religious money?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Oakman wrote:
'Twould be really nice if someome passed a law saying that only U.S. citizens could claim benefits from the U.S. Government
Erhmmm, just because I haven't filed the paperwork for citizenship doesn't mean I don't pay those damn pesky taxes.
Oakman wrote:
I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
Perhaps they were God fearin' because of what they believed they'd done, and the consequences they suspected awaited them.
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MidwestLimey wrote:
Erhmmm, just because I haven't filed the paperwork for citizenship doesn't mean I don't pay those damn pesky taxes.
I'm not talking about not letting you drive on our roads, or letting your kids into our schools without charging you tution - or even breathe our air that comes to you courtesy of the Clean Air Act of ought two. However, showing up in our hospitals and demanding that we pay for your open heart surgery 'cause you lost that job, haven't got any income (and aren't paying taxes) entitles you to be saved by our safety net is beyond the pale. ;P
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Either health care is a fundamental human right or it is not. If it is not, than government has no business giving it to anyone in any way. If it is, the state is obligated to ensure every last possible nanosecond of moral existence to every person regardless of the expense. What needs to happen is for the government to get entirely out of the issue altogether. That would solve the entire problem.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If it is, the state is obligated to ensure every last possible nanosecond of moral existence to every person regardless of the expense.
Did God tell you this, or at least Pope Troy?
Stan Shannon wrote:
Either health care is a fundamental human right or it is not.
"Among these are Life (if you can afford the doctor's fees); Liberty (if you can afford the lawyer's fees) and the Pursuit of Happiness (if you are a doctor or a lawyer)." - The Declaration of It Depends on Who You Are ~ Thomas the Jeffersonian.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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No. The way the article put the costs is what struck me. The article is about smoking costs not 'justifying termination of human life'.
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Brady Kelly wrote:
Ditto. Almost to the day.
I quit on April 12th - 14 years ago, from 4 packs @ day.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
You quit when they were still relatively cheap. Now they make pot look competitive...
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You quit when they were still relatively cheap. Now they make pot look competitive...
Rob Graham wrote:
You quit when they were still relatively cheap. Now they make pot look competitive...
I can remember buying them for my step-father for twenty-five cents a pack. Fifteen years later they'd gone up to thirty-five cents a pack, but you could still get a carton for $2.50. I quit when I found myself on my hands and knees trying to cough my lungs onto the living room floor and realised this was no way to live, just a surefire way to die. My costs went up in the short-term. I had to buy nicorette when it was still a prescription product, and sometimes I had 5 of them in my mouth at once.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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What would you do then about those who get care and don't pay for it, regardless of whether or not they're citizens? If hospitals can't turn anyone away because they can't pay then what incentive is there for people who pay now to continue doing so?
That only applies to ER care. Typically that means enough to stabilize and discharge or transport, not extensive care or corrective surgery. The stabilize and discharge gets abused pretty heavily, causing the ER waiting areas in most hospitals to be filled with folk waiting for "emergency" care for the flu, etc. Cuts, bullet wounds , and broken bones, influenza and a bad cold all get treat and release free care if the person can't pay. A non-paying, non-insured patient needing Chemotherapy for cancer is likely to only get a handful of free painkillers (unless of course the are over 65, in which case they get the chemo free, paid for by the taxpayers). Some hospitals have gotten smart, and just set up free clinics to reduce the ER traffic burden and treat the "emergency" walk-ins with lower cost staff and facilities.
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That only applies to ER care. Typically that means enough to stabilize and discharge or transport, not extensive care or corrective surgery. The stabilize and discharge gets abused pretty heavily, causing the ER waiting areas in most hospitals to be filled with folk waiting for "emergency" care for the flu, etc. Cuts, bullet wounds , and broken bones, influenza and a bad cold all get treat and release free care if the person can't pay. A non-paying, non-insured patient needing Chemotherapy for cancer is likely to only get a handful of free painkillers (unless of course the are over 65, in which case they get the chemo free, paid for by the taxpayers). Some hospitals have gotten smart, and just set up free clinics to reduce the ER traffic burden and treat the "emergency" walk-ins with lower cost staff and facilities.
So the incentive to pay then is for needed things that would otherwise not be taken care of as treat and release? What about known conditions then being not treated when insurance is being paid for because the 'preexisting condition' some coverage has? If you can't get your insurance company to cover a procedure that you need and your only option is paying for it yourself then, go bankrupt? My concern is, how do people paying for health care get what it is they need and are paying for. I guess I should replace health care with health insurance because the way insurance company's make money is through you not using the coverage. We don't use health insurance the same way we do life insurance or car insurance or home insurance. It's not for a 'just in case' scenario like the others. I guess the real question is what are you really paying for when you get health insurance, because heath care isn't quite it, IMHO.
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What would you do then about those who get care and don't pay for it, regardless of whether or not they're citizens? If hospitals can't turn anyone away because they can't pay then what incentive is there for people who pay now to continue doing so?
wolfbinary wrote:
What would you do then about those who get care and don't pay for it
if they can't afford it, they shouldn't get it.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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So the incentive to pay then is for needed things that would otherwise not be taken care of as treat and release? What about known conditions then being not treated when insurance is being paid for because the 'preexisting condition' some coverage has? If you can't get your insurance company to cover a procedure that you need and your only option is paying for it yourself then, go bankrupt? My concern is, how do people paying for health care get what it is they need and are paying for. I guess I should replace health care with health insurance because the way insurance company's make money is through you not using the coverage. We don't use health insurance the same way we do life insurance or car insurance or home insurance. It's not for a 'just in case' scenario like the others. I guess the real question is what are you really paying for when you get health insurance, because heath care isn't quite it, IMHO.
wolfbinary wrote:
So the incentive to pay then
It is like any other business contract. You purchase medical care as a service, and agree to pay the amount charged. If you have insurance, it will cover some (often the majority) of the cost, but usually not all of it. it is typical to have an 80/20 split, with some annual maximum cost to the insured. If you have no insurance, and don't pay, you get sued and may have declare bankruptcy to satisfy the debt (losing any property that can be sold to apply to the debt in the process). The poor (up to 4x the federal poverty level) are typically covered by state/federal supplied medical insurance, paid for by taxes. Most others get their medical insurance through their employer and an untaxed benefit with the employer often paying 80% of the premium.
wolfbinary wrote:
We don't use health insurance the same way we do life insurance
I disagree. Medical insurance spreads the cost over a wider group and time, so that the burden of a large expense is spread over years of premium cost. The main benefit is the just in case catastrophy/chronic illness coverage. The "routine" care part functions more as a forced savings/ care management and cost negotiation which is paid for out of the regular premium plus a small "co-pay" by the insured. That "routine" part seems different than life or auto insurance, but it is not the primary benefit.