LA was not saved
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BoneSoft wrote:
Who has been arrested for causing sleep deprivation?
Are you really so ill informed? You have no excuse it's all been posted before. The Death Penalty was imposed[^]
BoneSoft wrote:
There aren't that many people who think that slapping, sleep deprivation, or most of the other 'enhanced' techniques are torture.
Just most of the civilized world. Outside of the hard core right that has turned the republican party into the party of torture and now equate criticism of torture as criticism of conservativism, most people recognize it has torture. Reference above, we have executed people for this.
BoneSoft wrote:
If it doesn't leave a mark and they can walk away from it in one piece and there's no real chance of injury or death, it ain't torture.
Yes, it is. US statute and the treaties we have signed (which are US law) say otherwise. Look it up. No real chance of death? Then why have so many detainees died? Repost[^]
BoneSoft wrote:
oilFactotum wrote: It is a crime. So is jay walking, smoking weed, tying your horse to the windmill in the middle of Main street in some places, nominating a candidate for the presidency who's not legally qualified to hold the position, and many many other things. You're not constantly harping on those
What an utterly dishonest response.
What oilFactotum actually wrote:
It is a crime. Not just a crime, but a war crime. Our political leaders should not be considered above the law.
BoneSoft wrote:
Where's your evidence for that?
We've been through this already. You're willful ignorance is getting tedious.
BoneSoft wrote:
horsing around
X|
oilFactotum wrote:
Just most of the civilized world.
Oh please. Are you saying Russia isn't civilized? China? Egypt? Israel? Saudi Arabia? Sorry. But being civilized and eschewing torture have no 1:1 relationship. Frankly, I don't think even France believes that putting a caterpillar in a box in the same room with a prisoner is torture. As a matter of fact, you might be surprised at the powers of Brigade Criminelle and the Direction centrale de la police judiciaire have.
oilFactotum wrote:
Not just a crime, but a war crime
No. A crime. We weren't at war and the people we dealt with were not soldiers. This means that Bush et al cannot claim the exigencies of war and you cannot claim that they are war criminals, either.
oilFactotum wrote:
You torture apologists can't even come up with some lame anecdotal "proof" that torture has saved even one American life.
Blair's original memo, the one he was forced to water down so you could quote it, says that about 50% of our intel on the Al Qaeda network came from these methods, including waterboarding. That doesn't make it right, but I wish to hell you kneejerks would stop using Goebbels big lie technique.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
I have never in my entire life seen anyone so willing to commit national sucicide under the guise of following some meaningless bullsh*t rule that is open to interpretation.
Seriously? You really believe that the only thing standing between us and our complete destruction as a nation at the hands of a small group of extremists is torture? Well the terrorists have definitely lived up to their name. You are indeed terrified completely out of your mind.
oilFactotum wrote:
Well the terrorists have definitely lived up to their name. You are indeed terrified completely out of your mind.
I see. Any chance you are aware they they killed 3,000 people on September 11, 2001 and that is when and how they earned the sobriquet? Or are you saying that we don't have to worry any more? That's a hellova compliment to Bush if you are.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
I have never in my entire life seen anyone so willing to commit national sucicide under the guise of following some meaningless bullsh*t rule that is open to interpretation.
Seriously? You really believe that the only thing standing between us and our complete destruction as a nation at the hands of a small group of extremists is torture? Well the terrorists have definitely lived up to their name. You are indeed terrified completely out of your mind.
oilFactotum wrote:
Seriously? You really believe that the only thing standing between us and our complete destruction as a nation at the hands of a small group of extremists is torture?
Not at all. Complete destruction as a nation comes about because folks like you willingly permit it. You and folks with similar opinions remind me of the Quakers of revolutionary times. Check it out.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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oilFactotum wrote:
Just most of the civilized world.
Oh please. Are you saying Russia isn't civilized? China? Egypt? Israel? Saudi Arabia? Sorry. But being civilized and eschewing torture have no 1:1 relationship. Frankly, I don't think even France believes that putting a caterpillar in a box in the same room with a prisoner is torture. As a matter of fact, you might be surprised at the powers of Brigade Criminelle and the Direction centrale de la police judiciaire have.
oilFactotum wrote:
Not just a crime, but a war crime
No. A crime. We weren't at war and the people we dealt with were not soldiers. This means that Bush et al cannot claim the exigencies of war and you cannot claim that they are war criminals, either.
oilFactotum wrote:
You torture apologists can't even come up with some lame anecdotal "proof" that torture has saved even one American life.
Blair's original memo, the one he was forced to water down so you could quote it, says that about 50% of our intel on the Al Qaeda network came from these methods, including waterboarding. That doesn't make it right, but I wish to hell you kneejerks would stop using Goebbels big lie technique.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Knowing you for the poseur that you are, I am not suprised with your response. 1. You want to argue about the definition of civilized. 2. Use of unsupport claim of what others do to defend torture. 3. Use of a strawman to trivialize torture. 4. Try to define away warcrimes. 5. Ignore the real question and focus on the minor point of anecdotal evidence. Whether 5% or 50% or even 100% Admiral Blair also said this:
is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,”
The key elements in gaining this information was their capture and interrogation. the fact that the interrogation technique that was used was torture in only incidental. For all we know we could have gotten the same information without committing war crimes. So, still no affirmative evidence that torture saved even on life that would not have otherwise been saved. More to the point still no affirmative proof that torture is essential to our survival or simply that it is more effective than legal interrogation.
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BoneSoft wrote:
Who has been arrested for causing sleep deprivation?
Are you really so ill informed? You have no excuse it's all been posted before. The Death Penalty was imposed[^]
BoneSoft wrote:
There aren't that many people who think that slapping, sleep deprivation, or most of the other 'enhanced' techniques are torture.
Just most of the civilized world. Outside of the hard core right that has turned the republican party into the party of torture and now equate criticism of torture as criticism of conservativism, most people recognize it has torture. Reference above, we have executed people for this.
BoneSoft wrote:
If it doesn't leave a mark and they can walk away from it in one piece and there's no real chance of injury or death, it ain't torture.
Yes, it is. US statute and the treaties we have signed (which are US law) say otherwise. Look it up. No real chance of death? Then why have so many detainees died? Repost[^]
BoneSoft wrote:
oilFactotum wrote: It is a crime. So is jay walking, smoking weed, tying your horse to the windmill in the middle of Main street in some places, nominating a candidate for the presidency who's not legally qualified to hold the position, and many many other things. You're not constantly harping on those
What an utterly dishonest response.
What oilFactotum actually wrote:
It is a crime. Not just a crime, but a war crime. Our political leaders should not be considered above the law.
BoneSoft wrote:
Where's your evidence for that?
We've been through this already. You're willful ignorance is getting tedious.
BoneSoft wrote:
horsing around
X|
oilFactotum wrote:
Are you really so ill informed? You have no excuse it's all been posted before. The Death Penalty was imposed[^]
Nice job finding an equally radical perspective that agrees with you that compares us to Nazi Germany. :rolleyes: Though that doesn't do anything for your argument.
oilFactotum wrote:
Just most of the civilized world.
What you mean is the few people who believe the same things you do. I know you fall prey to the most common liberal disease: the deeply engrained belief that your view is that of the vast majority, but let's not base an entire set of arguments on it for a change.
oilFactotum wrote:
Then why have so many detainees died?
IF the ACLU got their facts straight and reported them objectively (and that's a huge if), then that is disturbing, and all such cases should be investigated. But many of those listed were interogated and died in Iraq and Afghanastan, who did the autopsies? Also, I didn't see any cases where autopsy determined that the cause of death was slapping, sleep deprivation, or fear of caterpillars... or waterboarding for that matter. I know you take it as gospel since it supports your stance, but objectively how reliable is the information?
oilFactotum wrote:
What an utterly dishonest response.
Ilion, is that you? You claim you are so up in arms over this issue because it's a crime. It's completely valid to ask why you don't make such a stink about other crimes. It's partly my fault for trivializing with SOME examples of much lesser crimes, but the point it valid. I'm starting to believe that Rob was completely correct that this is just your best angle for a Bush witch hunt.
oilFactotum wrote:
You're willful ignorance is getting tedious.
Your Ilion impersonation is getting better. :thumbsup:
oilFactotum wrote:
So where is your affirmative proof that torture is essential to our survival?
Why do I need it? I don't care what they do as long as they are allowed to do their jobs extracting as much information as possible, it doesn't bleed into law enforcement techniques for dealing with citizens in lesser circumstances, and it's lawful. I'm not the one arguing for a chang
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oilFactotum wrote:
Seriously? You really believe that the only thing standing between us and our complete destruction as a nation at the hands of a small group of extremists is torture?
Not at all. Complete destruction as a nation comes about because folks like you willingly permit it. You and folks with similar opinions remind me of the Quakers of revolutionary times. Check it out.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Complete destruction as a nation comes about because folks like you willingly permit it.
And how will insisting that our national ban or torture be honored permit it?
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BoneSoft wrote:
Let's hope and pray it comes to that.
Don't assume that the destruction of the Liberals would mean that folks would suddenly have a hankering for the Bush-Cheney style of politics, either. Whatever Obama has turned out to be, he was elected because the United States had had enough to the bumbling greedy incompetence of the Republicans. The shame is that while many average citizens are worried about losing their jobs, many more are trying to figure out if they will have to work until they are 75 before they can retire, and policy wonks like you and me are looking at Iran about to go nuclear, North Korea firing ICBM, Russia on the rise, China flexing his economic and military might, and Pakistan about to become an Islamic theocracy armed with 60 nuclear weapons Washington is paralysing itself arguing about things that happened eight years ago and criminalising political differences. There can't be anyone who hates America who isn't delighted with what has happened this week.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
Don't assume that the destruction of the Liberals would mean that folks would suddenly have a hankering for the Bush-Cheney style of politics, either.
I don't. Though I hadn't put that much thought into this completely unattainable hypothetical utopia.
Oakman wrote:
he was elected because the United States had had enough to the bumbling greedy incompetence of the Republicans.
True, without ever having the revelation that it has nothing to do with Republicans but politicians in general, and Congress specifically.
Oakman wrote:
There can't be anyone who hates America who isn't delighted with what has happened this week.
Absolutely. But I'd expand that to include the last few months.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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oilFactotum wrote:
Are you really so ill informed? You have no excuse it's all been posted before. The Death Penalty was imposed[^]
Nice job finding an equally radical perspective that agrees with you that compares us to Nazi Germany. :rolleyes: Though that doesn't do anything for your argument.
oilFactotum wrote:
Just most of the civilized world.
What you mean is the few people who believe the same things you do. I know you fall prey to the most common liberal disease: the deeply engrained belief that your view is that of the vast majority, but let's not base an entire set of arguments on it for a change.
oilFactotum wrote:
Then why have so many detainees died?
IF the ACLU got their facts straight and reported them objectively (and that's a huge if), then that is disturbing, and all such cases should be investigated. But many of those listed were interogated and died in Iraq and Afghanastan, who did the autopsies? Also, I didn't see any cases where autopsy determined that the cause of death was slapping, sleep deprivation, or fear of caterpillars... or waterboarding for that matter. I know you take it as gospel since it supports your stance, but objectively how reliable is the information?
oilFactotum wrote:
What an utterly dishonest response.
Ilion, is that you? You claim you are so up in arms over this issue because it's a crime. It's completely valid to ask why you don't make such a stink about other crimes. It's partly my fault for trivializing with SOME examples of much lesser crimes, but the point it valid. I'm starting to believe that Rob was completely correct that this is just your best angle for a Bush witch hunt.
oilFactotum wrote:
You're willful ignorance is getting tedious.
Your Ilion impersonation is getting better. :thumbsup:
oilFactotum wrote:
So where is your affirmative proof that torture is essential to our survival?
Why do I need it? I don't care what they do as long as they are allowed to do their jobs extracting as much information as possible, it doesn't bleed into law enforcement techniques for dealing with citizens in lesser circumstances, and it's lawful. I'm not the one arguing for a chang
BoneSoft wrote:
Why do I need it?
As I thought. You don't have any. :rolleyes:
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BoneSoft wrote:
Why do I need it?
As I thought. You don't have any. :rolleyes:
:laugh: That's all you got from that? I didn't go find some evidence I don't need, so you think you win. :rolleyes: This concludes our periodic reminder of why I should never bother attempting a discussion with Oily. Have a great day. :)
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Complete destruction as a nation comes about because folks like you willingly permit it.
And how will insisting that our national ban or torture be honored permit it?
oilFactotum wrote:
And how will
for starters, chasing after previous administrations to punish for redefined descriptions of torture (note #1) will hamstring current and subsequent administrations that will fear any actions they take in defense of the country will later be defined as a crime. Had the actions you currently find criminal / evil not been agreed to by all leaders, I could understand. However, what you (and Democratic leaders, and I use the term loosely) now decry was not decided and done in secrecy. Changing the definition now and prosecuting 1/2 of those who took part in the decisions (note #2) when those decisions were deemed necessary to protect the nation makes us little better than the worst bananna republic that you could name. Note #1 Torture[^] - since waterboarding, sleep deprivation and other techniques used cannot even reasonably be believed to cause pain nor could waterboarding cause suffering unless you define 40 seconds of discomfort and fear as suffering. Note #2 because it is a certainty that Saint Pelosi and scum will not be held to the new standard
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Knowing you for the poseur that you are, I am not suprised with your response. 1. You want to argue about the definition of civilized. 2. Use of unsupport claim of what others do to defend torture. 3. Use of a strawman to trivialize torture. 4. Try to define away warcrimes. 5. Ignore the real question and focus on the minor point of anecdotal evidence. Whether 5% or 50% or even 100% Admiral Blair also said this:
is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,”
The key elements in gaining this information was their capture and interrogation. the fact that the interrogation technique that was used was torture in only incidental. For all we know we could have gotten the same information without committing war crimes. So, still no affirmative evidence that torture saved even on life that would not have otherwise been saved. More to the point still no affirmative proof that torture is essential to our survival or simply that it is more effective than legal interrogation.
So basically you are saying that I should not try to confuse you with the facts? I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you would prefer to misuse words, ignore definitions and generally describe a world that doesn't exist.
oilFactotum wrote:
Admiral Blair also said this: is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,”
He absolutely did, but I'll bet my bottom dollar he wasn't talking about saying "pretty please."
oilFactotum wrote:
More to the point still no affirmative proof that torture is essential to our survival or simply that it is more effective than legal interrogation.
You've made no points here that I don't agree with. I probably started speaking out about torture when you were still investigating the mystery you'd just left in your diapers - since it was far more likely that I might experience it than you will ever come close to. What I object is to your classifying everything the CIA did as torture because it trivializes the impact of waterboarding. I object to your misuse of of the term "warcrime," because it places the act in a whole different - and harder to try - jurisdiction. I object to all the Move-On half-truths and prevarications you repeat as dogma. I object to your willingness to criminalize political differences regardless of what that might do to the country. And, I must admit, I object to your shrill tones as you repeat, over and over again, how much you hate this country. Carson, at least, has the excuse of not being a citizen; what's yours?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
modified on Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:59 PM
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Oakman wrote:
Don't assume that the destruction of the Liberals would mean that folks would suddenly have a hankering for the Bush-Cheney style of politics, either.
I don't. Though I hadn't put that much thought into this completely unattainable hypothetical utopia.
Oakman wrote:
he was elected because the United States had had enough to the bumbling greedy incompetence of the Republicans.
True, without ever having the revelation that it has nothing to do with Republicans but politicians in general, and Congress specifically.
Oakman wrote:
There can't be anyone who hates America who isn't delighted with what has happened this week.
Absolutely. But I'd expand that to include the last few months.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
BoneSoft wrote:
But I'd expand that to include the last few months.
I suppose that's true - though some of 'em were bitching that he wasn't moving fast enough.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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So basically you are saying that I should not try to confuse you with the facts? I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you would prefer to misuse words, ignore definitions and generally describe a world that doesn't exist.
oilFactotum wrote:
Admiral Blair also said this: is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,”
He absolutely did, but I'll bet my bottom dollar he wasn't talking about saying "pretty please."
oilFactotum wrote:
More to the point still no affirmative proof that torture is essential to our survival or simply that it is more effective than legal interrogation.
You've made no points here that I don't agree with. I probably started speaking out about torture when you were still investigating the mystery you'd just left in your diapers - since it was far more likely that I might experience it than you will ever come close to. What I object is to your classifying everything the CIA did as torture because it trivializes the impact of waterboarding. I object to your misuse of of the term "warcrime," because it places the act in a whole different - and harder to try - jurisdiction. I object to all the Move-On half-truths and prevarications you repeat as dogma. I object to your willingness to criminalize political differences regardless of what that might do to the country. And, I must admit, I object to your shrill tones as you repeat, over and over again, how much you hate this country. Carson, at least, has the excuse of not being a citizen; what's yours?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
modified on Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:59 PM
Basically your response was bereft of facts. And your new response here is equally bereft. As there is nothing here save ad hominem attacks, we are done.