Prevailing Meme in the Back Room
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Synaptrik wrote:
collectively
the fucking problem, defined.
Synaptrik wrote:
Nobody buys things like a free middle class
you haven't been free for quite a while, only deluded. there is no freedom when the government has the ability to tax at will or to take control of your property via eminent domaign. to think otherwise is to not understand the meaning of freedom.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Slavery is subjective. As well as Freedom. And its to a matter of degree. We'll always be slaves to our environment for instance. As long as we need to eat to live we're a slave to food gathering. We mitigate it through social arrangements and technology, but its still to a matter of degree. So, yes. I haven't been free for a while. But to a degree that I notice? Nah. Anecdote. I was working in landscaping and we had a worm casting setup. A hippy kid tried to ask me if the worms minded the slavery I was subjecting them to. I asked if they could know the difference at all? Eating crap is eating crap, whether in a tub with other worms or in the dirt where they are natively. Would you take the red pill, to eat synthetic aminos in a dismal apocalyptic setting? Or eat the blue pill and enjoy virtual steak? And what is really different between the two besides a frame of reference? You still need to eat and crap. You still need to work, whether on a ship or in an office. There's still interactions, associations, and duty. The kids in the matrix or slaves and the ones roaming the depths in metal buckets are free. Yet is the relative experience much different for either of them? Nice philosophical point you raise Mike. But its philosophical at best. I am no more free in the idealistic world of unfettered free trade and the dominance of free market economic models with locally controlled social mores imposed upon the rest. No, in either situation there is still a limit to freedom. Its subjective.
This statement is false
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Slavery is subjective. As well as Freedom. And its to a matter of degree. We'll always be slaves to our environment for instance. As long as we need to eat to live we're a slave to food gathering. We mitigate it through social arrangements and technology, but its still to a matter of degree. So, yes. I haven't been free for a while. But to a degree that I notice? Nah. Anecdote. I was working in landscaping and we had a worm casting setup. A hippy kid tried to ask me if the worms minded the slavery I was subjecting them to. I asked if they could know the difference at all? Eating crap is eating crap, whether in a tub with other worms or in the dirt where they are natively. Would you take the red pill, to eat synthetic aminos in a dismal apocalyptic setting? Or eat the blue pill and enjoy virtual steak? And what is really different between the two besides a frame of reference? You still need to eat and crap. You still need to work, whether on a ship or in an office. There's still interactions, associations, and duty. The kids in the matrix or slaves and the ones roaming the depths in metal buckets are free. Yet is the relative experience much different for either of them? Nice philosophical point you raise Mike. But its philosophical at best. I am no more free in the idealistic world of unfettered free trade and the dominance of free market economic models with locally controlled social mores imposed upon the rest. No, in either situation there is still a limit to freedom. Its subjective.
This statement is false
Synaptrik wrote:
Nice philosophical point you raise Mike. But its philosophical at best.
it is far from philosophical, the philosphy you refer to is the philospohy that resulted in your nation. if you accept the loss of freedom willingly, your children and their chrldren have my sympathy. but to repeat myself as well as add to my original statement, you're not free if: you can be taxed freely by your governemt you can be forced to give up your property to your government through eminent domaign you have ask permission of purchase a firearm you have to ask permission to carry your firearm
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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I meant as a new middle class of consumers to feed China's demand for sales.
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Ah, ok. But if the US is screwed, India is screwed worse because that's where most of our FDI comes from. Example: Our benchmark index, the SENSEX, hit an all-time high of 21,000+ last Jan. In comparison, it reached 6,000 for the first time in mid 2005. Before the year was out, it had plummeted below 8,000.
Cheers, Vikram.
Current activities: Films: Sense and Sensibility TV series: Friends, season 2 Books: Longitude, by Dava Sobel.
Carpe Diem.
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Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
have diminished since Bush left. India does not like it that the USA has always considered Pakistan an ally over India. A secular democracy receptive to Western ideas versus an Islamic state that has been under military dictatorship for over half its existence.
Is perception that it will be better now? --- What is the opinion over there if Taliban take over Pakistan? Is that likely?
The US seems to be slowly coming around to the idea that India is a more natural partner than Pakistan, but guess which is the MNNA?
kmg365 wrote:
What is the opinion over there if Taliban take over Pakistan?
They will start sending out more terrorists. There already are reports that dozens have infiltrated, and I think it's only a question of time before the next terrorist attack. They are insane enough to even launch a direct attack. If the USA wakes up to find the Taliban in Islamabad, then, yes, it would have to unambiguously align itself with India, although to what level it would support India against Pakistan is anybody's guess.
kmg365 wrote:
Is that likely?
Unless the USA steps into Pakistan to clear out the Taliban (and face it, the Pakistani state apparatus seems neither willing nor able to do it), it's only a question of when, not if.
Cheers, Vikram.
Current activities: Films: Sense and Sensibility TV series: Friends, season 2 Books: Longitude, by Dava Sobel.
Carpe Diem.
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Or Ilion, or oily, or Intel-whatever... Or me: we've just elected an alleged fraud and known leftist as State President. Woe unto us, crime is prevalent, what will I do? The ANC rule for another five years, White people be worried! Woe, strife, heaviness, black futureless barren wastes, terrible miserable life. :laugh::laugh:
You really gotta try harder to keep up with everyone that's not on the short bus with you. - John Simmons / outlaw programmer.
Brady Kelly wrote:
we've just elected an alleged fraud
Hey, you're late, we do it all the time!
Cheers, Vikram.
Current activities: Films: Sense and Sensibility TV series: Friends, season 2 Books: Longitude, by Dava Sobel.
Carpe Diem.
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kmg365 wrote:
What are they talking about at StarBucks these days?
Shitty over-roasted coffee beans?
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Or Ilion, or oily, or Intel-whatever... Or me: we've just elected an alleged fraud and known leftist as State President. Woe unto us, crime is prevalent, what will I do? The ANC rule for another five years, White people be worried! Woe, strife, heaviness, black futureless barren wastes, terrible miserable life. :laugh::laugh:
You really gotta try harder to keep up with everyone that's not on the short bus with you. - John Simmons / outlaw programmer.
Brady Kelly wrote:
Or me: we've just elected an alleged fraud and known leftist as State President.
elected... fraud.... Seems like the natural order of things.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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...is that the world will end. Really?!? This is what you all really think? I see a concerted effort to raise the alarms of FUD-based rhetoric to meteoric heights and we're all just merrily hopping along to the tune like a bunch of drooling lemmings. Ohhh... buy bullets! Ohhh.... China will invade! Ohhh... Socialism! Ohhh... bullshit. A lot remains to be seen and it appears to me that we, collectively are forgetting the tenacity and resilience of this nation and its peoples. At the local level it doesn't feel like the picture being painted at the larger level. Maybe its geographic, but I doubt it unless we're talking Detroit. An interesting side story is a city in North Carolina which has printed its own local currency to stave off the recession: local solutions[^] There are things that we can do at the local level that will weather a depression. And I doubt that China will invade. They need their consumer base. Nobody buys things like a free middle class. I don't think India is quite up to that challenge yet.
This statement is false
I think we just like to commiserate.
Synaptrik wrote:
There are things that we can do at the local level that will weather a depression.
Yeah, our neighbors have all actually had a talk about this. Everybody in the culdesac has started a vegetable garden :) and a few people have uprooted their oaks and planted fruit trees. It won't save the world but I do appreciate people thinking about it.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Ah, ok. But if the US is screwed, India is screwed worse because that's where most of our FDI comes from. Example: Our benchmark index, the SENSEX, hit an all-time high of 21,000+ last Jan. In comparison, it reached 6,000 for the first time in mid 2005. Before the year was out, it had plummeted below 8,000.
Cheers, Vikram.
Current activities: Films: Sense and Sensibility TV series: Friends, season 2 Books: Longitude, by Dava Sobel.
Carpe Diem.
Right, so due to the codependency between the US and China, I can't honestly accept the scenario of them invading. They depend on our social and economic structures for their economy and applying their forms onto our society would backfire. So, no invasion. Just more FUD.
This statement is false
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I think we just like to commiserate.
Synaptrik wrote:
There are things that we can do at the local level that will weather a depression.
Yeah, our neighbors have all actually had a talk about this. Everybody in the culdesac has started a vegetable garden :) and a few people have uprooted their oaks and planted fruit trees. It won't save the world but I do appreciate people thinking about it.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Exactly what I'm getting at. I think that locally the impacts will be less than what we see in the media and on forums such as this. Too bad no one picked up the topic of North Carolina's new currency and its local success. That's the real story in this thread. But an old adage comes to mind: " You can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think. "
This statement is false
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...is that the world will end. Really?!? This is what you all really think? I see a concerted effort to raise the alarms of FUD-based rhetoric to meteoric heights and we're all just merrily hopping along to the tune like a bunch of drooling lemmings. Ohhh... buy bullets! Ohhh.... China will invade! Ohhh... Socialism! Ohhh... bullshit. A lot remains to be seen and it appears to me that we, collectively are forgetting the tenacity and resilience of this nation and its peoples. At the local level it doesn't feel like the picture being painted at the larger level. Maybe its geographic, but I doubt it unless we're talking Detroit. An interesting side story is a city in North Carolina which has printed its own local currency to stave off the recession: local solutions[^] There are things that we can do at the local level that will weather a depression. And I doubt that China will invade. They need their consumer base. Nobody buys things like a free middle class. I don't think India is quite up to that challenge yet.
This statement is false
Synaptrik wrote:
Ohhh... buy bullets! Ohhh.... China will invade! Ohhh... Socialism! Ohhh... bullsh*t.
You left out: Ohhh...Bush! Ohhh...Cheney! Ohhhh...Christians! Ohhh...free market capitalism! Ohhhh...social conservatives! Ohhhh....neo cons...
Synaptrik wrote:
A lot remains to be seen and it appears to me that we, collectively are forgetting the tenacity and resilience of this nation and its peoples.
I'm actually pretty sure that the people who have forgotten that are currently in control of congress and the white house, and the democrats and liberals in general.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Slavery is subjective. As well as Freedom. And its to a matter of degree. We'll always be slaves to our environment for instance. As long as we need to eat to live we're a slave to food gathering. We mitigate it through social arrangements and technology, but its still to a matter of degree. So, yes. I haven't been free for a while. But to a degree that I notice? Nah. Anecdote. I was working in landscaping and we had a worm casting setup. A hippy kid tried to ask me if the worms minded the slavery I was subjecting them to. I asked if they could know the difference at all? Eating crap is eating crap, whether in a tub with other worms or in the dirt where they are natively. Would you take the red pill, to eat synthetic aminos in a dismal apocalyptic setting? Or eat the blue pill and enjoy virtual steak? And what is really different between the two besides a frame of reference? You still need to eat and crap. You still need to work, whether on a ship or in an office. There's still interactions, associations, and duty. The kids in the matrix or slaves and the ones roaming the depths in metal buckets are free. Yet is the relative experience much different for either of them? Nice philosophical point you raise Mike. But its philosophical at best. I am no more free in the idealistic world of unfettered free trade and the dominance of free market economic models with locally controlled social mores imposed upon the rest. No, in either situation there is still a limit to freedom. Its subjective.
This statement is false
Synaptrik wrote:
I am no more free in the idealistic world of unfettered free trade and the dominance of free market economic models with locally controlled social mores imposed upon the rest. No, in either situation there is still a limit to freedom. Its subjective.
If you believe that than you don't have a clue what the word 'freedom' even means.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Synaptrik wrote:
I am no more free in the idealistic world of unfettered free trade and the dominance of free market economic models with locally controlled social mores imposed upon the rest. No, in either situation there is still a limit to freedom. Its subjective.
If you believe that than you don't have a clue what the word 'freedom' even means.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Lets look at one hypothetical based on free trade and unregulated markets. Commercialism reigns supreme and Monsanto is unblocked in its move to genetically modify our greenery and patent it so noone can legally produce seed. Now I'm not even free to eat natural food. Extreme case but allowed under your model. Sounds like freedom eh?
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Lets look at one hypothetical based on free trade and unregulated markets. Commercialism reigns supreme and Monsanto is unblocked in its move to genetically modify our greenery and patent it so noone can legally produce seed. Now I'm not even free to eat natural food. Extreme case but allowed under your model. Sounds like freedom eh?
Synaptrik wrote:
Sounds like freedom eh?
Stan was correct, you don't have a clue. stay out of the way when things get tough, you will not survive.
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Lets look at one hypothetical based on free trade and unregulated markets. Commercialism reigns supreme and Monsanto is unblocked in its move to genetically modify our greenery and patent it so noone can legally produce seed. Now I'm not even free to eat natural food. Extreme case but allowed under your model. Sounds like freedom eh?
Synaptrik wrote:
Monsanto is unblocked in its move to genetically modify our greenery and patent it so noone can legally produce seed.
Monsanto has no power to patent anything. Only government has such power. You can participate in defining the nature of that government - thats freedom. But mansanto does provide jobs for those willing to work for it. That gives those people the ability to provide for their own welfare by means of their own ability to produce commodities others are willing to pay for. That is also freedom. Freedom is about responsibility and participation, and nothing else.
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Synaptrik wrote:
I am no more free in the idealistic world of unfettered free trade and the dominance of free market economic models with locally controlled social mores imposed upon the rest. No, in either situation there is still a limit to freedom. Its subjective.
If you believe that than you don't have a clue what the word 'freedom' even means.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If you believe that than you don't have a clue what the word 'freedom' even means.
Translation: "Freedom is the opportunity to do the things I care about. The opportunity to do things other people care about doesn't count."
John Carson
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Synaptrik wrote:
Sounds like freedom eh?
Stan was correct, you don't have a clue. stay out of the way when things get tough, you will not survive.
hahaha.. yeah. Ok, FUD. Just pointing out that whoever wins the political/economic wars, there will be free and non-free alike and it will be subjective. Enjoy your doom and gloom scenarios. When they don't pan out ... well, I'm sure you'll attempt to stir some more up.
This statement is false
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Synaptrik wrote:
Monsanto is unblocked in its move to genetically modify our greenery and patent it so noone can legally produce seed.
Monsanto has no power to patent anything. Only government has such power. You can participate in defining the nature of that government - thats freedom. But mansanto does provide jobs for those willing to work for it. That gives those people the ability to provide for their own welfare by means of their own ability to produce commodities others are willing to pay for. That is also freedom. Freedom is about responsibility and participation, and nothing else.
Its a hypothetical Stan. But.. Monsanto has patented their genetically engineered crops. Some third world people are forced by patent to reorder seed if they use those crops instead of using the seed the plant produces. So, while hypothetical not entirely outside the realm of possibility.
This statement is false
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Stan Shannon wrote:
If you believe that than you don't have a clue what the word 'freedom' even means.
Translation: "Freedom is the opportunity to do the things I care about. The opportunity to do things other people care about doesn't count."
John Carson