The diminishing power of "boo" words
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Intel 4004 wrote:
Why shouldn't they?
The issue under discussion is labelling. You shouldn't use dramatically different labels for things that are only modestly different.
Intel 4004 wrote:
It would be better if everyone paid an equal share. In the end it all evens out anyways. Someone is paying their income, and that someone gets money from somewhere else and so on. Lets say I buy a beer from a company that pays one of those rich bastards, I end up contributing to his salary and ultimately contributing to the money he sends to the IRS.
Interpreted generously, you appear to be claiming that the post-tax distribution of income is the same regardless of the progressivity of the tax system because tax burdens get shifted by means of changes in salaries and prices. Please provide the proof. A Nobel Prize in economics awaits you.
John Carson
John Carson wrote:
Please provide the proof.
You don't need proof for this, its easy to understand how it works. Maybe not for you, but it is for me. Unfortunately many people find economics impossible to understand, however I would expect computer savvy programmers to understand it more than anyone else.
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Chris Austin wrote:
With this you and I agree 100%. I find the idea of a graduated tax distasteful and see no logical means to justify it a society where people are supposed to be treated as equals and have the same opportunities.
Yes but Oakhead & Co disagree so we must be wrong. :~
Intel 4004 wrote:
Yes but Oakhead & Co disagree so we must be wrong. :~
I never claimed to be right. But, my opinion is that the graduated tax code has lead to the incredible cruft and vaguely written rules in our tax code. Hell, I'll admit that as an owner of multiple business and someone who invests I pay far less in taxes than the published rate. It is the system and I'd be stupid not to understand it and to be as efficient as possible when it comes to it.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Intel 4004 wrote:
Lets say I buy a beer from a company that pays one of those rich bastards, I end up contributing to his salary and ultimately contributing to the money he sends to the IRS.
You have absolutely no idea how the economy works, how taxation works, or what socialist, capitalist, Marxist, or fascist means, do you? Your ignorance is pathetic, Heinze. Singlehandledly, you display all the reasons why Democracy can fail.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
You have absolutely no idea how the economy works, how taxation works, or what socialist, capitalist, Marxist, or fascist means, do you?
I know how it works, how it can be manipulated and understand the consequences of the manipulation.
Oakman wrote:
Singlehandledly, you display all the reasons why Democracy can fail.
Why? Is it because I can see though the cloud of deception? Or perhaps I won't vote for what 'they' want me to vote for like the rest of the mindless cattle.
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Intel 4004 wrote:
Yes but Oakhead & Co disagree so we must be wrong. :~
I never claimed to be right. But, my opinion is that the graduated tax code has lead to the incredible cruft and vaguely written rules in our tax code. Hell, I'll admit that as an owner of multiple business and someone who invests I pay far less in taxes than the published rate. It is the system and I'd be stupid not to understand it and to be as efficient as possible when it comes to it.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Chris Austin wrote:
I never claimed to be right
Perhaps correct is a less offensive word for you?
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This discussion is for people with jobs, people who pay tax. How do you have a vested interest ?
Intel 4004 wrote:
Lets say I buy a beer from a company that pays one of those rich bastards
So, people who are successful, are to be hated for it ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "I am new to programming world. I have been learning c# for about past four weeks. I am quite acquainted with the fundamentals of c#. Now I have to work on a project which converts given flat files to XML using the XML serialization method" - SK64 ( but the forums have stuff like this posted every day )
Christian Graus wrote:
So, people who are successful, are to be hated for it ?
It would seem so.
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John Carson wrote:
Please provide the proof.
You don't need proof for this, its easy to understand how it works. Maybe not for you, but it is for me. Unfortunately many people find economics impossible to understand, however I would expect computer savvy programmers to understand it more than anyone else.
Intel 4004 wrote:
You don't need proof for this, its easy to understand how it works. Maybe not for you, but it is for me. Unfortunately many people find economics impossible to understand, however I would expect computer savvy programmers to understand it more than anyone else.
There is an apt description that economist Frank Hahn offered for people like you. "They claim to be able to get from A to Z in one leap when in truth they would struggle to make it from A to B."
John Carson
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Intel 4004 wrote:
You don't need proof for this, its easy to understand how it works. Maybe not for you, but it is for me. Unfortunately many people find economics impossible to understand, however I would expect computer savvy programmers to understand it more than anyone else.
There is an apt description that economist Frank Hahn offered for people like you. "They claim to be able to get from A to Z in one leap when in truth they would struggle to make it from A to B."
John Carson
He is probably talking about Ben Bernanke and Obama economics.
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Christian Graus wrote:
So, people who are successful, are to be hated for it ?
It would seem so.
Why ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "I am new to programming world. I have been learning c# for about past four weeks. I am quite acquainted with the fundamentals of c#. Now I have to work on a project which converts given flat files to XML using the XML serialization method" - SK64 ( but the forums have stuff like this posted every day )
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Chris Austin wrote:
I never claimed to be right
Perhaps correct is a less offensive word for you?
Intel 4004 wrote:
Perhaps correct is a less offensive word for you?
You don't get it eh? Just because I have a strong opinion about something based on my experiences and my views doesn't mean that my opinion is an indisputable fact. I am willing to listen to a novel argument that may support the other side.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
modified on Wednesday, May 6, 2009 11:47 PM
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Intel 4004 wrote:
Lets say I buy a beer from a company that pays one of those rich bastards, I end up contributing to his salary and ultimately contributing to the money he sends to the IRS.
You have absolutely no idea how the economy works, how taxation works, or what socialist, capitalist, Marxist, or fascist means, do you? Your ignorance is pathetic, Heinze. Singlehandledly, you display all the reasons why Democracy can fail.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
Singlehandledly, you display all the reasons why Democracy can fail.
Good ole Lazarus said it best.
Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. How's that again? I missed something.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Why ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "I am new to programming world. I have been learning c# for about past four weeks. I am quite acquainted with the fundamentals of c#. Now I have to work on a project which converts given flat files to XML using the XML serialization method" - SK64 ( but the forums have stuff like this posted every day )
Christian Graus wrote:
Why ?
I don't know, because so many people are broke or perhaps a company like AIG catylizes that opinion.
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Intel 4004 wrote:
Perhaps correct is a less offensive word for you?
You don't get it eh? Just because I have a strong opinion about something based on my experiences and my views doesn't mean that my opinion is an indisputable fact. I am willing to listen to a novel argument that may support the other side.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
modified on Wednesday, May 6, 2009 11:47 PM
Is there anything that you can be certain of?
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It used to be in the US that calling someone a liberal was a significant political indictment, but that word seems to have lost its power. So Republicans upped the ante, and now characterize as "socialist" anyone who thinks the income tax rate on the rich should be a couple of percent higher. There are even some crazies who promiscuously throw around the word "Marxist" to describe anyone to the left of center. However, such debasing of the language can ultimately be self-defeating. Words lose their power to frighten. This Rasmussen report shows this is happening. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism[^]
John Carson
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Is there anything that you can be certain of?
Intel 4004 wrote:
Is there anything that you can be certain of?
Sure. Lot of things, heck most things. At the risk of coming off as condescending I'll try to expand. In science we have lots of laws and lots of theories that may as well be laws because they are reliable, repeatable and, measurable. This is what makes something provable. But, sometimes we don't always have all of the data and when new repeatable data is added our models have to be updated either fundamentally or for edge cases. And, once the updated or new model accounts for the new data we accept it and move on. (Don't be pedantic here, I'm trying to be brief :) ) This is the way I try to look at things in general. I try to base my opinions on things that are reliable and repeatable not just on something I've heard. If something new comes into the picture I try and listen to it and move on from there.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Ilíon wrote:
Oh, do you mean something like how 'racist' and 'fascist' and 'nazi' are now meaningless?
I don't know about racist and nazi. But fascist has certainly lost it's meaning now that the RushBots and the BeckBots are shouting them on cue after having ignored the previous decade's fascism.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Intel 4004 wrote:
Is there anything that you can be certain of?
Sure. Lot of things, heck most things. At the risk of coming off as condescending I'll try to expand. In science we have lots of laws and lots of theories that may as well be laws because they are reliable, repeatable and, measurable. This is what makes something provable. But, sometimes we don't always have all of the data and when new repeatable data is added our models have to be updated either fundamentally or for edge cases. And, once the updated or new model accounts for the new data we accept it and move on. (Don't be pedantic here, I'm trying to be brief :) ) This is the way I try to look at things in general. I try to base my opinions on things that are reliable and repeatable not just on something I've heard. If something new comes into the picture I try and listen to it and move on from there.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Chris Austin wrote:
try to base my opinions on things that are reliable and repeatable not just on something I've heard.
Same here believe it or not. What I stated about the progressive tax system, I thought that out for a very long time, over the course of years.
Chris Austin wrote:
If something new comes into the picture I try and listen to it and move on from there.
As do I, I like to get views from all sides, then I work out where I stand from there.
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Ilíon wrote:
Oh, do you mean something like how 'racist' and 'fascist' and 'nazi' are now meaningless?
The tendency to exaggerate and demonize is widespread, so many words have diminished effectiveness. I won't trouble to debate exactly how strong this effect is for each word.
John Carson
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Oakman wrote:
You have absolutely no idea how the economy works, how taxation works, or what socialist, capitalist, Marxist, or fascist means, do you?
I know how it works, how it can be manipulated and understand the consequences of the manipulation.
Oakman wrote:
Singlehandledly, you display all the reasons why Democracy can fail.
Why? Is it because I can see though the cloud of deception? Or perhaps I won't vote for what 'they' want me to vote for like the rest of the mindless cattle.
Intel 4004 wrote:
Why? Is it because I can see though the cloud of deception? Or perhaps I won't vote for what 'they' want me to vote for like the rest of the mindless cattle.
No. It's because you are ignorant, ill-informed, more interested in yourself than your country, spend all day surfing the net, take drugs, steal from your employer - when you have one, uneducated, bigoted, credulous, and arrogant without any cause to be.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Chris Austin wrote:
With this you and I agree 100%. I find the idea of a graduated tax distasteful and see no logical means to justify it a society where people are supposed to be treated as equals and have the same opportunities.
Yes but Oakhead & Co disagree so we must be wrong. :~
Intel 4004 wrote:
Yes but Oakhead & Co
Not at all. I have long supported a flat-tax - as long as it is truly flat and there are no exceptions based how the income comes in or what it is spent for. On the other hand, I find it ludicrous that a person who has never paid taxes in his life and has collected "free money" from the government would presume to comment about the tax structure. Once you become a productive member of this society - a consummation devoutly to be wished but not to be looked for - then you might have earned the right to complain, offer suggestions, or demand changes. Until then, child, stfu.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Ilíon wrote:
Oh, do you mean something like how 'racist' and 'fascist' and 'nazi' are now meaningless?
I don't know about racist and nazi. But fascist has certainly lost it's meaning now that the RushBots and the BeckBots are shouting them on cue after having ignored the previous decade's fascism.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell