Who is the conservative?
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No, you didn't get it at all. My point was that Powell is, at least in foreign affairs, far more conservative that Cheney and Limbaugh.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
No, you didn't get it at all. My point was that Powell is, at least in foreign affairs, far more conservative that Cheney and Limbaugh.
So, if we turn into France-with-a-military we can overlook that little part about having turned into France?
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Rob Graham wrote: Spoken by a defender of the republican party conservative, founding principles come on now, get it right.
Sorry, Mike, but many of the Founding Fathers were radical leftists.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
Sorry, Mike, but many of the Founding Fathers were radical leftists.
sure Jon, that is the very reason for the 10th amendment, right?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
And nearly all of that happened precisely because of the effort to be more centrist which you, oakman and Powell are promoting.
Bullshit. McCain was persuaded to move hard right, as evidenced by his running mate choice. He ran to the right not the center, but totally bungled on the economic issues. The sins of GWB, Brown, Bremmer, Paulson, Cheney, and Don Rumsfeld can hardly be blamed on centrists. The Republican party made no effort whatsoever to move to the center in 2008, rather it reluctantly accepted a former centrist running hard right with a lousy sop to the right wing as a running mate.
Rob Graham wrote:
The Republican party made no effort whatsoever to move to the center in 2008
the center of just what? do you even understand what you're saying? both parties are so far to the left (and miles to the left of the founder's principles) that the term center has no meaning whatsoever. just so you understand, left is total central government control (just for the hell of it, call it tryanny) and the farther right you go the less central government control you have. right now the electorate (which I referred to as ignorant) wants the central government to: buy them food, chew it, spit it down their throats then take a shit for them. simply disgusting.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Rob Graham wrote:
McCain was persuaded to move hard right, as evidenced by his running mate choice.
Can you tell me one single issue Palin is 'hard right' on? What? She wants to put Jews into gas chambers?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Can you tell me one single issue Palin is 'hard right' on? What?
she refused to kill her unborn child, refused to pay homage to NOW.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Can you tell me one single issue Palin is 'hard right' on? What?
she refused to kill her unborn child, refused to pay homage to NOW.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
That is what is so very amusing about these "move to the center types". The implication is that anyone who thinks a human fetus deserves some degree of legal protection and respect or that marriage should be between a male and a female, or that a christian prayer to protect our troops makes someone 'hard right'. Never mind the fact that nearly 99.99999% of every human being who has ever lived would have generally found those principles to be perfectly acceptable. Now they are, by decree, 'Right Wing'. :rolleyes:
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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BoneSoft wrote:
George W Bush is not the sum total of the Republican party
Absolutely correct. Nor are the neocons, or the centrists Stan calls liberals, or the Neaderthal branch of Christianity. The problem is that folks are going around announcing that they represent the politically correct police and unless you agree with them, you have to leave the party.
BoneSoft wrote:
At least the right has some principals
Funny, only a couple of years ago there were so many scandals involving conservative republicans, that I was going around saying that there really were some conservatives with principles. Maybe that's just a function of being the party-in-power?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
represent the politically correct police
Has nothing to do with political correctness. With Powell, I suspect that many people are just hurt that he would seem to turn on them. I remember in 2004 hearing people say he'd be a great first black president. He was a shining star for a lot of Republicans because he was Powell and he was on their side. I really think it's just that simple.
Oakman wrote:
Maybe that's just a function of being the party-in-power?
Or maybe that's just a function of being the party who doesn't own the media. ;) They're all corrupt worthless bastards. The only difference between a Republican politician and a Democrat politician is who they lie to for votes. For that, Arlen Spector is a great exclaimation point.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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Rob Graham wrote:
The Republican party made no effort whatsoever to move to the center in 2008
the center of just what? do you even understand what you're saying? both parties are so far to the left (and miles to the left of the founder's principles) that the term center has no meaning whatsoever. just so you understand, left is total central government control (just for the hell of it, call it tryanny) and the farther right you go the less central government control you have. right now the electorate (which I referred to as ignorant) wants the central government to: buy them food, chew it, spit it down their throats then take a shit for them. simply disgusting.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
left is total central government control (just for the hell of it, call it tryanny) and the farther right you go the less central government control you have.
Once upon a time we were talking about government control, period. That was back in the days before the Republicans wanted to replace the tyranny of Washington with the tyranny of Springfield. Used to be that the Republicans were interested in personal freedom and personal responsibility. Used to be.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
the electorate (which I referred to as ignorant) wants the central government to: buy them food, chew it, spit it down their throats then take a sh*t for them. simply disgusting.
Whereas Stan wants his friends and neighbors to do that for him. And tell him which church to attend.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Oakman wrote:
represent the politically correct police
Has nothing to do with political correctness. With Powell, I suspect that many people are just hurt that he would seem to turn on them. I remember in 2004 hearing people say he'd be a great first black president. He was a shining star for a lot of Republicans because he was Powell and he was on their side. I really think it's just that simple.
Oakman wrote:
Maybe that's just a function of being the party-in-power?
Or maybe that's just a function of being the party who doesn't own the media. ;) They're all corrupt worthless bastards. The only difference between a Republican politician and a Democrat politician is who they lie to for votes. For that, Arlen Spector is a great exclaimation point.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
BoneSoft wrote:
With Powell, I suspect that many people are just hurt that he would seem to turn on them.
You could be right, but after the shabby treatment he received from the Administration, especially Rumsfeld, I am surprised his response has been as mild as it is.
BoneSoft wrote:
They're all corrupt worthless bastards. The only difference between a Republican politician and a Democrat politician is who they lie to for votes. For that, Arlen Spector is a great exclaimation point.
I've had the same thought. He is the epitome of the self-serving creepazoid we have gotten in the habit of electing.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Oakman wrote:
Surrender to the Bubbas or fight?
That is precisely what you are asking the Bubbas to do.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
That is precisely what you are asking the Bubbas to do.
Only because most of them don't know how to talk. They end up mouthing phrases like "kiddies," and "intellectually dishonest;" it's always hard having a discussion with someone like that.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Stan Shannon wrote:
That is precisely what you are asking the Bubbas to do.
Only because most of them don't know how to talk. They end up mouthing phrases like "kiddies," and "intellectually dishonest;" it's always hard having a discussion with someone like that.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
Only because most of them don't know how to talk. They end up mouthing phrases like "kiddies," and "intellectually dishonest;" it's always hard having a discussion with someone like that.
Maybe, but we can understand 'our way or the highway' about as well as anyone. The one huge advantage we have over everyone else is that our principles work. We have no need to go anywhere.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Oakman wrote:
No, you didn't get it at all. My point was that Powell is, at least in foreign affairs, far more conservative that Cheney and Limbaugh.
So, if we turn into France-with-a-military we can overlook that little part about having turned into France?
Ilíon wrote:
So, if we turn into France-with-a-military we can overlook that little part about having turned into France?
That wasn't what I was talking about at all. You see, it is possible to defend Bush from attacks from knee-jerk liberals without espousing his rather simplistic philosophies of governemnt or claiming that his myriad mistakes were actually successes. Equally, it is possible to point out that Powell is far more conservative in his foreign policies than the other two gentlemen, and a million time more of a patriot than those cowards. By the way, what did you say you did in the war? Shovel shit in Louisianna, perhaps?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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BoneSoft wrote:
With Powell, I suspect that many people are just hurt that he would seem to turn on them.
You could be right, but after the shabby treatment he received from the Administration, especially Rumsfeld, I am surprised his response has been as mild as it is.
BoneSoft wrote:
They're all corrupt worthless bastards. The only difference between a Republican politician and a Democrat politician is who they lie to for votes. For that, Arlen Spector is a great exclaimation point.
I've had the same thought. He is the epitome of the self-serving creepazoid we have gotten in the habit of electing.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
the shabby treatment he received from the Administration
I never really heard how or why he quit.
Oakman wrote:
self-serving creepazoid we have gotten in the habit of electing
I swear, if you have any interest in helping people or care in the least about preserving the republic there's no place for you at the DC trough. You have to go there as a crook with dollar signs in your eyes and find that you serve lobbies and the super rich bastards, (the kind that wall street titans hope to some day grow up to be). But then again, it's damn hard to find anybody with passing interest in helping others or the republic anyway. I'm not sure where the Rubicon is, but I'm positive we past it. What we need is a non corrupt government, and I don't know how you pull that off. But I'm pretty sure shooting lobbiests on site would be a step in the right direction. Lobbying = state sanctioned corruption.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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Pure paranoia.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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I never said there would not be two parties. But the two we now have would cease to exist, just as the whigs and the original democrats did.
Oakman wrote:
the Dems might split into a centrist party and a liberal one.
Than why do you care about we conservatives? Why is it such a big deal to you?
Oakman wrote:
Only in Mrs McGillicuddy's 4th grade history primer.
Back when real american history was still taught.
Oakman wrote:
Tell that to Rush.
I listen to him almost every day. I haven't heard him picking any battles with anyone. he just sits there defending conservatism. Its kind of hard to pick a battle when you are on defense.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Than why do you care about we conservatives? Why is it such a big deal to you?
I care about Powell because he is a genuine hero. I care about Cheney because he contributed to the detahs of a lot of good soldiers. I reallt don't care about Rush very much except as the sine qua non of chicken hawks. You seem to always think in terms of groups, Stan. Criticise one conservative and one is trashing the entire philosophy; praise one liberal and one has gone over to the dark side. This kind of colletivist thinking is what leads to fascism and communism.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Oakman wrote:
The problem is that folks are going around announcing that they represent the politically correct police and unless you agree with them, you have to leave the party.
And yet you are the one who wants to force anyone who disagrees with you politically to live in gated communities.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
And yet you are the one who wants to force anyone who disagrees with you politically to live in gated communities.
I find it strange that telling people they may do something if they choose to, is totally outside of your comprehension. Was your childhood so regimented that there were no choices, only rules you were forced to obey?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Absolutely. Better dead than red. There is no virtue in compromise, no joy in tolerance.
Rob Graham wrote:
There is no virtue in compromise, no joy in tolerance.
He must have missed that day in history class when they discussed Henry Clay.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
I'm a proud denizen of the Real Soapbox[^]
ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!!! -
Oakman wrote:
The primary purpose of a political party is to win elections. If it can't win, then it should cease to exist. There seems to be a bunch of social conservatives who would rather see the Republican party become irrelevant than provide a viable alternative to the Dems.
The destruction of one party will mean the ultimate destruction of the other. They exist in a symbiotic relationship. One cannot long survive without the other.
Oakman wrote:
FYI: the Republican party has not always been socially conservative. The Republican party has not always been the toady of Wall Street. The Republican party has not always been warmongers. And the Republican party has not always been the party of old white men - only.
No, but that is what the United States of America as a whole has always largely been.
Oakman wrote:
I learned a long time ago to pick my battles - that way I could win some. I simply realised that the technical term for someone who lost every battle because he was fighting on so many fronts, was "loser."
But we aren't picking any battles at all. We're just standing around watching you 'centrists' fight it out with the leftists. Have fun.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
The destruction of one party will mean the ultimate destruction of the other. They exist in a symbiotic relationship. One cannot long survive without the other.
I seem to remember you calling for the destruction of the Democrats in this very forum. We know you'd wet your pants if you had a one party system AND it was YOUR party.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
I'm a proud denizen of the Real Soapbox[^]
ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!!! -
Mike Gaskey wrote:
feel free to compromise any and all of your principles - it'll make your life much easier.
Spoken by a defender of the republican party. The party of GWB which created the largest single expansion of government in history, exceeding even the excesses of Johnson. The party that so completely abandoned any principles of sound economics that they gave $700B to the banks and insurers that they had failed to regulate and oversee in any reasonable fashion. A party that failed to defend our borders, and prosecuted border patrol agents rather than illegals. A party that preferred cronyism to competence, appointing an officious, arrogant, bumbling ass of an incompetent race track lawyer to oversee our emergency response agencies, and let us not forget the fine talent dispatched to see the securing of the peace in Iraq, Bremmer the clueless... Yes these are fine, principled folk. Much to be admired - in a rear view mirror. All excellent representatives of that so principled party... Now you whine that the centrists brought you down? Give me a fucking break. You did yourselves in, displaying your fine principles for all to see.
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Rob Graham wrote:
McCain was persuaded to move hard right, as evidenced by his running mate choice.
Can you tell me one single issue Palin is 'hard right' on? What? She wants to put Jews into gas chambers?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Can you tell me one single issue Palin is 'hard right' on?
You're such a joke on the topic of Palin.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
I'm a proud denizen of the Real Soapbox[^]
ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!!! -
Stan Shannon wrote:
Pure paranoia.
ROFL. I've taught you a new word.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin