Interesting take on socialism vs. conservatism.
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I'm busy reading Robert Anton Wilson's Prometheus Rising[^], in which he associates our most basic survival 'circuit' with a need for attachment to the gene pool, or at a slightly higher level, with the tribe. He goes on to assert that socialism attempts to replace the tribe with the state, which is doomed to failure. He then, interestingly, asserts that conservatives, through their appeal to local, Christian based charity in the absence of state intervention, attempt to replace the tribe with magic, also doomed to failure.
You really gotta try harder to keep up with everyone that's not on the short bus with you. - John Simmons / outlaw programmer.
Brady Kelly wrote:
attempt to replace the tribe with magic, also doomed to failure.
He is wrong , of course. Tribes have always depended on magic to survive. Thats how we got here, after all. But no conservative is argueing for the elimination of state intervention altogether, just minimizing it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Brady Kelly wrote:
attempt to replace the tribe with magic, also doomed to failure.
He is wrong , of course. Tribes have always depended on magic to survive. Thats how we got here, after all. But no conservative is argueing for the elimination of state intervention altogether, just minimizing it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
He is wrong , of course. Tribes have always depended on magic to survive
Of course. Sacrificing your first-born has nearly always resulted in a good crop, and when the crop wasn't good, maybe it wasn't your child you killed after all.
You really gotta try harder to keep up with everyone that's not on the short bus with you. - John Simmons / outlaw programmer.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
He is wrong , of course. Tribes have always depended on magic to survive
Of course. Sacrificing your first-born has nearly always resulted in a good crop, and when the crop wasn't good, maybe it wasn't your child you killed after all.
You really gotta try harder to keep up with everyone that's not on the short bus with you. - John Simmons / outlaw programmer.
Brady Kelly wrote:
Sacrificing your first-born has nearly always resulted in a good crop, and when the crop wasn't good, maybe it wasn't your child you killed after all.
Actually, they usually killed the king. so, if Obama knew that unless he pulled the US out of the depression by next January 20th, we would cut off his head and pour his blood over the treasury building - do you think he'd do anything differently?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Brady Kelly wrote:
Sacrificing your first-born has nearly always resulted in a good crop, and when the crop wasn't good, maybe it wasn't your child you killed after all.
Actually, they usually killed the king. so, if Obama knew that unless he pulled the US out of the depression by next January 20th, we would cut off his head and pour his blood over the treasury building - do you think he'd do anything differently?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Actually, Wilson goes on to suggest that we, liberal and conservative, have replaced real attachment to the gene pool with tokenised attachment, through the introduction of money. In that sense, Obama really has to sort some shit out.
You really gotta try harder to keep up with everyone that's not on the short bus with you. - John Simmons / outlaw programmer.
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I'm busy reading Robert Anton Wilson's Prometheus Rising[^], in which he associates our most basic survival 'circuit' with a need for attachment to the gene pool, or at a slightly higher level, with the tribe. He goes on to assert that socialism attempts to replace the tribe with the state, which is doomed to failure. He then, interestingly, asserts that conservatives, through their appeal to local, Christian based charity in the absence of state intervention, attempt to replace the tribe with magic, also doomed to failure.
You really gotta try harder to keep up with everyone that's not on the short bus with you. - John Simmons / outlaw programmer.
Brady Kelly wrote:
conservatives, through their appeal to local, Christian based charity in the absence of state intervention, attempt to replace the tribe with magic, also doomed to failure
Pournelle makes a similar point with his Political Axes[^] Essentially he says that if, along with a left-to-right axis of how much government is the right amout, you need a north-to-south axis of how much decipherable the universe is (man can figure it out as opposed to there are gods and demons in charge), universe. Communists and fascists agree very much about how much state is needed, but different strongly on how rational the universe is. Micheal Bakunin and Ayn Rand agree that the state is pretty close to the ultimate evil, but Bakunin thinks the universe is beyond his understanding so he just goes around blowing things up, while Rand thinks than mankind can be brought to see that there's no need for a state, especially a police force. (Apparently assuming that criminals are too dumb to band together to take over.) IMHO, most successful groups and politicians - even the Nazis and the Soviets - do not approach the absolute edges of either axis - or, when they drift that way, they stop being successful. For instance, I suspect that Obama is strongly on the side of a decipherable universe and strongly on the side of a powerful state - yet neither of these factors force him to react in a knee-jerk fashion and occasionally he responds by reigning in the power of the state or acknowledging that some aspects of the universe seem beyond understanding. Edit Only for typos - I shouldn't try to type before my second cup of coffee /Edit
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
modified on Friday, May 15, 2009 11:01 AM
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I'm busy reading Robert Anton Wilson's Prometheus Rising[^], in which he associates our most basic survival 'circuit' with a need for attachment to the gene pool, or at a slightly higher level, with the tribe. He goes on to assert that socialism attempts to replace the tribe with the state, which is doomed to failure. He then, interestingly, asserts that conservatives, through their appeal to local, Christian based charity in the absence of state intervention, attempt to replace the tribe with magic, also doomed to failure.
You really gotta try harder to keep up with everyone that's not on the short bus with you. - John Simmons / outlaw programmer.
I think he and Robert Shea take a further poke at the limited "left vs right" political thought in "The Illuminatus! Trilogy." Though that book is more farcical.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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I think he and Robert Shea take a further poke at the limited "left vs right" political thought in "The Illuminatus! Trilogy." Though that book is more farcical.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
And he was also in the Golden Order of the Dawn, a Crowleyite, and a general Creative Psychologist with a heavy focus on shamanism and Jungian philosophy. I only found a little of his writings to deal with politics. I started with his Cosmic Trigger book in 92.
This statement is false
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Brady Kelly wrote:
conservatives, through their appeal to local, Christian based charity in the absence of state intervention, attempt to replace the tribe with magic, also doomed to failure
Pournelle makes a similar point with his Political Axes[^] Essentially he says that if, along with a left-to-right axis of how much government is the right amout, you need a north-to-south axis of how much decipherable the universe is (man can figure it out as opposed to there are gods and demons in charge), universe. Communists and fascists agree very much about how much state is needed, but different strongly on how rational the universe is. Micheal Bakunin and Ayn Rand agree that the state is pretty close to the ultimate evil, but Bakunin thinks the universe is beyond his understanding so he just goes around blowing things up, while Rand thinks than mankind can be brought to see that there's no need for a state, especially a police force. (Apparently assuming that criminals are too dumb to band together to take over.) IMHO, most successful groups and politicians - even the Nazis and the Soviets - do not approach the absolute edges of either axis - or, when they drift that way, they stop being successful. For instance, I suspect that Obama is strongly on the side of a decipherable universe and strongly on the side of a powerful state - yet neither of these factors force him to react in a knee-jerk fashion and occasionally he responds by reigning in the power of the state or acknowledging that some aspects of the universe seem beyond understanding. Edit Only for typos - I shouldn't try to type before my second cup of coffee /Edit
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
modified on Friday, May 15, 2009 11:01 AM
Oakman wrote:
Micheal Bakunin and Ayn Rand agree that the state is pretty close to the ultimate evil, but Bakunin thinks the universe is beyond his understanding so he just goes around blowing things up, while Rand thinks than mankind can be brought to see that there's no need for a state, especially a police force.
ANd Rand is, of course, correct. A society with a free markdet economy and a respect for grass roots moral traditions has little need for a central government at all - just as our founders planned for.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
He is wrong , of course. Tribes have always depended on magic to survive
Of course. Sacrificing your first-born has nearly always resulted in a good crop, and when the crop wasn't good, maybe it wasn't your child you killed after all.
You really gotta try harder to keep up with everyone that's not on the short bus with you. - John Simmons / outlaw programmer.
Brady Kelly wrote:
Of course. Sacrificing your first-born has nearly always resulted in a good crop, and when the crop wasn't good, maybe it wasn't your child you killed after all.
SOmething must have worked, it got us from there to here.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Oakman wrote:
Micheal Bakunin and Ayn Rand agree that the state is pretty close to the ultimate evil, but Bakunin thinks the universe is beyond his understanding so he just goes around blowing things up, while Rand thinks than mankind can be brought to see that there's no need for a state, especially a police force.
ANd Rand is, of course, correct. A society with a free markdet economy and a respect for grass roots moral traditions has little need for a central government at all - just as our founders planned for.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
ANd Rand is, of course, correct.
No police force? Interesting. You are an arch-libertarian. Who would have thought it? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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And he was also in the Golden Order of the Dawn, a Crowleyite, and a general Creative Psychologist with a heavy focus on shamanism and Jungian philosophy. I only found a little of his writings to deal with politics. I started with his Cosmic Trigger book in 92.
This statement is false
I think I'll get the Illuminatus Trilogy now - when I read the Chronicles prequel, there weren't online bookshops, and I couldn't get it. In true RAW tradition, I read volume 2 of the trilogy first, of a prequel written after the main work. I was very impressed with his pragmatic-humorous colouring of everything occult and conspiratorial.