Holy crap!
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Christian Graus wrote:
The trouble in the US is that it seems to me that people ( or at least, the people who make themselves visible on this and other issues ) are so polarised that you'd almost expect either a 'no abortion' or a 'do whatever you want, it's your body' approach from anyone involved. Common sense does not seem to enter the discussion.
And that is entirely the fault of the left which went out of their way to create a polarizing issue out of it. There will obviously always be deeply held religious fundamentalist aversion to abortion in any way. But what explains the equal fanaticism of the left on this topic? Why the hell are they so adament that there can be no restrictions of any kind on abortion? It is important to them precisely because it allows them to associate any opposition to their broader agenda with some kind of religioius extremism. It automagically means anyone who promotes any kind of a conservative belief is allied with 'right wing christian zealots'...
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Christian Graus wrote:
The trouble in the US is that it seems to me that people ( or at least, the people who make themselves visible on this and other issues ) are so polarised that you'd almost expect either a 'no abortion' or a 'do whatever you want, it's your body' approach from anyone involved.
So true. And that's usually what you get, because the silent majority understands that it's a complex ethical issue that doesn't lend itself particularly well to all-or-nothing approaches. Dumb loud people are the ones that get the airtime :^) .
Christian Graus wrote:
Through working with families where one child is autistic especially ( that is, autism is what she sees most at her work ),
OT, but as she's someone who works quite a bit with autistic children, I'd be interested to know what your wife thinks about the antics of Jenny McCarthy and her anti-vaccine crusade.
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Fisticuffs wrote:
OT, but as she's someone who works quite a bit with autistic children, I'd be interested to know what your wife thinks about the antics of Jenny McCarthy and her anti-vaccine crusade.
I don't know who that is, but we have US friends who are not getting their kids vaccinated to avoid autism. I believe that if what he said is correct, then the number of vaccinations kids get in the US is probably insane, and bad for us as a species. My kids got what is the full round of vaccinations in Australia, and anyone who doesn't do that, is insane IMO. I also think a lot of people have no idea what autism/aspergers are. They are not diseases, they are states of brain function. It's also not all or nothing, it's a spectrum. I suspect that like ADHD, most kids diagnosed with autism probably have nothing major wrong with them, except perhaps being part of a species that evolved to function in a highly physical environment, and instead spend their lives watching DVDs and playing Nintendo.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
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Christian Graus wrote:
I'm sorry he's dead, but I agree with Oakman. How can late term abortion be legal ?
It's legal because the logic of legalizing abortion-on-demand requires it.
Christian Graus wrote:
I thought that only went on in China.
That's because you *insist* upon being ignorant about certain key issues.
Ilíon wrote:
It's legal because the logic of legalizing abortion-on-demand requires it.
Well, that may well be true.
Ilíon wrote:
That's because you *insist* upon being ignorant about certain key issues.
Abortion in the US is not really a key issue for me. More of a sideshow, really.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
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Gary Kirkham wrote:
That's terrible.
No it isn't. It's justice ... that is, certainly it's terrible (for pure justice is a terrible thing), but it's not terrible in the wimpy, passive, hand-wringing Churchianity way that you mean the word.
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Christian Graus wrote:
So, the right had extreme views first, but it's the fault of the left ?
Define 'the right'...
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Christian Graus wrote:
So, the right had extreme views first, but it's the fault of the left ?
Define 'the right'...
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
One would assume it's whoever does not qualify as 'the left' when you say it. Unless there's a centre, but I assume it's the antithesis of the left that is implied by defining the right as the opposite of what you define as 'the left.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
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One would assume it's whoever does not qualify as 'the left' when you say it. Unless there's a centre, but I assume it's the antithesis of the left that is implied by defining the right as the opposite of what you define as 'the left.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
But the 'left' defines itself, and it defines 'the right'. I didn't invent those terms. All I said was that christian fundamentalism is obviously always going to oppose abortion. Thats a given. Are you saying that christian fundamentalists are on 'the right'? How so? Exactly what do they promote that characterizes them as 'right wing'?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Saul would be so proud!
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Fisticuffs wrote:
OT, but as she's someone who works quite a bit with autistic children, I'd be interested to know what your wife thinks about the antics of Jenny McCarthy and her anti-vaccine crusade.
I don't know who that is, but we have US friends who are not getting their kids vaccinated to avoid autism. I believe that if what he said is correct, then the number of vaccinations kids get in the US is probably insane, and bad for us as a species. My kids got what is the full round of vaccinations in Australia, and anyone who doesn't do that, is insane IMO. I also think a lot of people have no idea what autism/aspergers are. They are not diseases, they are states of brain function. It's also not all or nothing, it's a spectrum. I suspect that like ADHD, most kids diagnosed with autism probably have nothing major wrong with them, except perhaps being part of a species that evolved to function in a highly physical environment, and instead spend their lives watching DVDs and playing Nintendo.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
Christian Graus wrote:
but we have US friends who are not getting their kids vaccinated to avoid autism.
Thats odd. I've lived here my entire life and I've never actually met anyone who does that.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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One would assume it's whoever does not qualify as 'the left' when you say it. Unless there's a centre, but I assume it's the antithesis of the left that is implied by defining the right as the opposite of what you define as 'the left.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
'The right' as they so call it is the natural order. It is standard. It is what humans have been since the beginning of humanity. It is nature. It is what nature has been since the beginning of nature.
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Hey, whatever you like. But it sure is nice that you cite statistics from 1987 when it's 22 years later (and I thought the CDC data from 2004 was pushing it), that's a real nice touch.
Oakman wrote:
Do you think that the number of malformed fetuses has shot up, just in time to keep these butchers in business?
No, of course not - diagnostic procedures, understanding of genetics, none of that has improved at all. To diagnose trisomy 18, gynecologists measure the four humours (especially phlegm) as standard of care these days.
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Fisticuffs wrote:
But it sure is nice that you cite statistics from 1987 when it's 22 years later (
So none of wehat i said had any validity? You were in diapers when the study was published - maybe you're operating out of survivor's guilt? Well in 2007 the U.S. had 1,206,200 abortions, which if the percentage holds steady - and given the reasons cited in the original study, technology woul not have an impact - 214,240 late term abortions were performed. All of them according to you, from fetal abnormalities. Sooner or later you're going to realise that it's easier and less painful to say "Whoops, I was wrong," than to emulate Troy and maintain that you and only you know the truth. Why someone might end up saying: Fisti Has Spoken: * A Moment of Silence *
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Fisticuffs wrote:
OT, but as she's someone who works quite a bit with autistic children, I'd be interested to know what your wife thinks about the antics of Jenny McCarthy and her anti-vaccine crusade.
I don't know who that is, but we have US friends who are not getting their kids vaccinated to avoid autism. I believe that if what he said is correct, then the number of vaccinations kids get in the US is probably insane, and bad for us as a species. My kids got what is the full round of vaccinations in Australia, and anyone who doesn't do that, is insane IMO. I also think a lot of people have no idea what autism/aspergers are. They are not diseases, they are states of brain function. It's also not all or nothing, it's a spectrum. I suspect that like ADHD, most kids diagnosed with autism probably have nothing major wrong with them, except perhaps being part of a species that evolved to function in a highly physical environment, and instead spend their lives watching DVDs and playing Nintendo.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
Oh, McCarthy is Jim Carrey's wife and an anti-vaccine activist who's been making the rounds on Oprah and the like. Thanks to her brand of misinformation, measles and whooping cough is making a comeback in certain pockets of the US. Glad to hear it hasn't really pervaded your neck of the woods.
Christian Graus wrote:
I believe that if what he said is correct, then the number of vaccinations kids get in the US is probably insane, and bad for us as a species.
Well, if it's the latest "too many too soon" bandwagon I can tell you there's really not a lot of truth to the claims. The number of challenges/organisms that a person's immune system encounters in a day is an order of magnitude more than the number of vaccines they'll receive over their entire life.
Christian Graus wrote:
I also think a lot of people have no idea what autism/aspergers are.
Also a very good point.
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But the 'left' defines itself, and it defines 'the right'. I didn't invent those terms. All I said was that christian fundamentalism is obviously always going to oppose abortion. Thats a given. Are you saying that christian fundamentalists are on 'the right'? How so? Exactly what do they promote that characterizes them as 'right wing'?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Are you saying that christian fundamentalists are on 'the right'?
Um... duh.
Stan Shannon wrote:
How so? Exactly what do they promote that characterizes them as 'right wing'?
You really don't know ? What would they have to promote in order to be on the 'right', in your view ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
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'The right' as they so call it is the natural order. It is standard. It is what humans have been since the beginning of humanity. It is nature. It is what nature has been since the beginning of nature.
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Christian Graus wrote:
What humans were from the start, is kill or be killed.
Humans are still that way. I bet you would be *killed since you can't *kill. *kill/killed could be used in many contexts.
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Christian Graus wrote:
but we have US friends who are not getting their kids vaccinated to avoid autism.
Thats odd. I've lived here my entire life and I've never actually met anyone who does that.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
I was in Texas.... Hell of a nice guy, he's smart, too. He's done some research and somehow decided that's right, and the way he tells it, he's probably right. He's getting vaccinations, just selectively. I've only heard his side, so I am on the fence in his case, but overall against any nut job who gives their kids NO vaccinations.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Are you saying that christian fundamentalists are on 'the right'?
Um... duh.
Stan Shannon wrote:
How so? Exactly what do they promote that characterizes them as 'right wing'?
You really don't know ? What would they have to promote in order to be on the 'right', in your view ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
Christian Graus wrote:
You really don't know ?
Actually, I am quite perplexed by it. And I always have been. It is the original question that began turning me into a conservative.
Christian Graus wrote:
What would they have to promote in order to be on the 'right', in your view ?
I don't know. I hardly see how someone saying that life should be protected even when it is in the womb ends up on the same side of the political spectrum as Adolph Hitler. I don't necessarily agree with that fundamentalist perspective, but I'm stumped as to how anyone could catalog it politically along side Nazism.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Oh, McCarthy is Jim Carrey's wife and an anti-vaccine activist who's been making the rounds on Oprah and the like. Thanks to her brand of misinformation, measles and whooping cough is making a comeback in certain pockets of the US. Glad to hear it hasn't really pervaded your neck of the woods.
Christian Graus wrote:
I believe that if what he said is correct, then the number of vaccinations kids get in the US is probably insane, and bad for us as a species.
Well, if it's the latest "too many too soon" bandwagon I can tell you there's really not a lot of truth to the claims. The number of challenges/organisms that a person's immune system encounters in a day is an order of magnitude more than the number of vaccines they'll receive over their entire life.
Christian Graus wrote:
I also think a lot of people have no idea what autism/aspergers are.
Also a very good point.
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Fisticuffs wrote:
The number of challenges/organisms that a person's immune system encounters in a day is an order of magnitude more than the number of vaccines they'll receive over their entire life.
Sure - his point was that a lot of them were vaccinating against things that are not life threatening. He said he would ask 'what if we don't do this and he gets this disease' and the answer was 'he'll feel a bit sick for a few days'. If that is true, why vaccinate ? Like I said above, I've only heard his side, and I would default towards 'do what the doctor recommends', but if he's right, I would agree that it's silly to vaccinate for things that are not really that bad.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
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Christian Graus wrote:
What humans were from the start, is kill or be killed.
Humans are still that way. I bet you would be *killed since you can't *kill. *kill/killed could be used in many contexts.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I bet you would be *killed since you can't *kill.
I think you'd be surprised what I can do when threatened. Don't make the mistake of thinking that because I support the rights of the weak, that I am weak myself. I am not. I've had kids your age try to threaten me with knives and so on, I just kept coming, and they ran. I don't take any crap.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
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I was in Texas.... Hell of a nice guy, he's smart, too. He's done some research and somehow decided that's right, and the way he tells it, he's probably right. He's getting vaccinations, just selectively. I've only heard his side, so I am on the fence in his case, but overall against any nut job who gives their kids NO vaccinations.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
Christian Graus wrote:
so I am on the fence in his case, but overall against any nut job who gives their kids NO vaccinations.
As am I sure most AMericans are. I suppose we don't tend to be as intellectually monolithic as Australians.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.