Holy crap!
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Fisticuffs wrote:
But it sure is nice that you cite statistics from 1987 when it's 22 years later (
So none of wehat i said had any validity? You were in diapers when the study was published - maybe you're operating out of survivor's guilt? Well in 2007 the U.S. had 1,206,200 abortions, which if the percentage holds steady - and given the reasons cited in the original study, technology woul not have an impact - 214,240 late term abortions were performed. All of them according to you, from fetal abnormalities. Sooner or later you're going to realise that it's easier and less painful to say "Whoops, I was wrong," than to emulate Troy and maintain that you and only you know the truth. Why someone might end up saying: Fisti Has Spoken: * A Moment of Silence *
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
Well in 2007 the U.S. had 1,206,200 abortions, which if the percentage holds steady - and given the reasons cited in the original study, technology woul not have an impact - 214,240 late term abortions were performed. All of them according to you, from fetal abnormalities.
According to the 2004 study he cited: "A limited number of abortions were obtained at >15 weeks' gestation, including 4.0% at 16--20 weeks and 1.4% at >21 weeks." So that is 5.4% at 16 weeks or later. Note that this is 5.4% of all abortions, not 5.4% of all pregnancies. There are over 4 million live births in the US each year, so we are talking about something like 1% of all pregnancies that are subject to late term abortion. Accoring to Fisticuffs, the "lion's share" of these (not "all of them") are for foetal abnormalities.
John Carson
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Christian Graus wrote:
Ah - see, I did say that. And, it's true. The idea that the state can decide who lives and dies, is still a common thread between nazism and the right. And, in both cases, innocents die.
So, to you then, being 'right wing' is merely an issue of capital punishment?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
So, to you then, being 'right wing' is merely an issue of capital punishment?
Well, no, it's an obvious example of a believe that I am strongly opposed to, but it's not the only issue that defines right wing. It perhaps encapsulates all that is uncaring and judgmental about a right wing view, as I understand it, tho.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
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David Alinsky?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Oakman wrote:
Well in 2007 the U.S. had 1,206,200 abortions, which if the percentage holds steady - and given the reasons cited in the original study, technology woul not have an impact - 214,240 late term abortions were performed. All of them according to you, from fetal abnormalities.
Well, the 2004 CDC data suggests that only about 5% of those abortions are later (>= 15wks) which would actually put that number around 60,000. Secondly, because most places place legal restrictions on when and under what conditions late-term abortions can be performed, it's difficult to know for sure. But, if the States is anything like anywhere else, late-term abortions can be performed for a fetal indication (i.e. deformity) or a maternal indication (which can be interpreted tightly or loosely, (i.e. most places would consider psychological reasons an indication). One French study suggests fetal/maternal indications for late term abortion is 90%/10% (PMID: 14634970). Another study in a different country was something like 95%/5%. Data is sparse but when most professional associations (e.g. the CMA position paper)[^] generally discourage abortion beyond the date of viability (can be later but minimum 20 weeks GA because of respiratory development) it strongly suggests that it's indeed the minority of women that are getting abortions-on-demand in the later phases of pregnancy. Thirdly, don't take it out on me just because you can't keep this issue in perspective.
- F
Fisticuffs wrote:
Well, the 2004 CDC data suggests that only about 5% of those abortions are later (>= 15wks) which would actually put that number around 60,000.
Okay. For the sake of the argument, I'll buy that figure. Further, I'll postulate that 70% of those abortions are performed on non viable fetuses. And that rather than the 70% figure that the study came up with for late abortions as a method of birth control, I'll flip the figures on their head and say 30% so that's only 5,400 viable fetuses with their heads crushed because mommy changed her mind. There were 53 executions for crimes like serial homicides, cop-killings, etc. in 2007 (last year for which full data is available.) Canada, I am told, considers this barbaric, but doesn't blink about 5,400 executions in the US of creatures that by any stretch of the imagination are living humans??? X|
Fisticuffs wrote:
don't take it out on me just because you can't keep this issue in perspec
You seem to have a propensity for realizing that you have gone too far and immediately blaming everyone you've been yelling at. Once again, i assure you that some day you'll find that saying, "I made a mistake," or "I was wrong," is a lot easier than to continue arguing when you know that you aren't making sense even to yourself. Enough. I'm bored. You can have the last word.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Stan Shannon wrote:
So, to you then, being 'right wing' is merely an issue of capital punishment?
Well, no, it's an obvious example of a believe that I am strongly opposed to, but it's not the only issue that defines right wing. It perhaps encapsulates all that is uncaring and judgmental about a right wing view, as I understand it, tho.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, no, it's an obvious example of a believe that I am strongly opposed to, but it's not the only issue that defines right wing. It perhaps encapsulates all that is uncaring and judgmental about a right wing view, as I understand it, tho.
So, 'right wing' means being uncaring and judgemental? But you would hardly consider christian fundamentalists opposed to abortion as being uncaring would you? Judgemental perhaps, but then, judgemental is a matter of perspective. I mean, how do you call someone judgemental without being judgemental?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Well, no, it's an obvious example of a believe that I am strongly opposed to, but it's not the only issue that defines right wing. It perhaps encapsulates all that is uncaring and judgmental about a right wing view, as I understand it, tho.
So, 'right wing' means being uncaring and judgemental? But you would hardly consider christian fundamentalists opposed to abortion as being uncaring would you? Judgemental perhaps, but then, judgemental is a matter of perspective. I mean, how do you call someone judgemental without being judgemental?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
But you would hardly consider christian fundamentalists opposed to abortion as being uncaring would you?
When they judge others based on their own situations, when they hurl abuse at women going in to abortion clinics, when they kill doctors, they are uncaring.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I mean, how do you call someone judgemental without being judgemental?
LOL - good point.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
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Fisticuffs wrote:
OT, but as she's someone who works quite a bit with autistic children, I'd be interested to know what your wife thinks about the antics of Jenny McCarthy and her anti-vaccine crusade.
I don't know who that is, but we have US friends who are not getting their kids vaccinated to avoid autism. I believe that if what he said is correct, then the number of vaccinations kids get in the US is probably insane, and bad for us as a species. My kids got what is the full round of vaccinations in Australia, and anyone who doesn't do that, is insane IMO. I also think a lot of people have no idea what autism/aspergers are. They are not diseases, they are states of brain function. It's also not all or nothing, it's a spectrum. I suspect that like ADHD, most kids diagnosed with autism probably have nothing major wrong with them, except perhaps being part of a species that evolved to function in a highly physical environment, and instead spend their lives watching DVDs and playing Nintendo.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
Christian Graus wrote:
we have US friends who are not getting their kids vaccinated to avoid autism.
We have friends here, trendy inner city types, who didn't get their little boy who's now three vaccinated at all, not even the vitamin K injection after birth because they believe there is little risk. It's scary to know that the kid goes to childcare everyday and no surprise we got a letter from our doctor offering free whooping cough vaccinations to parents as there's been a huge out break in our area this year.
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Christian Graus wrote:
What a pile of ignorant BS
:laugh:
Christian Graus wrote:
Yeah, if I suffer a brain injury, I may start to buy into this stuff. Or if I lose my job, my family and my money, AND my self will, then I'd be ripe pickings for these people. Just like you.
So as long as you have your own little world to live in, nothing else matters. I know how that is, back when I had money I didn't give a shit about the who what when where how, as long as I could buy my happiness wrapped in plastic made in china.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Christian Graus wrote: What a pile of ignorant BS
Well, you can laugh, but how the hell do you claim my government won't let me defend myself ? In any case, the point is surely if our system of government broke down, I may have to, and you think I won't, so what does the government matter ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
So as long as you have your own little world to live in, nothing else matters
Well, that's not true. I am quick to throw time and money at things that are real, such as donating money to sponsor children, drought relief, etc. I am a part of society and I contribute my resources to places that I think deserve them.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
. I know how that is, back when I had money I didn't give a sh*t about the who what when where how
But I'm the one with no empathy, right ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
as long as I could buy my happiness wrapped in plastic made in china.
I try to buy local whenever I can. I pay more for things like milk and tinned foods, in order to support the local economy.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
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Gary Kirkham wrote:
That's terrible.
No it isn't. It's justice ... that is, certainly it's terrible (for pure justice is a terrible thing), but it's not terrible in the wimpy, passive, hand-wringing Churchianity way that you mean the word.
Ilíon wrote:
but it's not terrible in the wimpy, passive, hand-wringing Churchianity way that you mean the word.
Well bless your little heart. Since I didn't say how I meant it, your description can best be described as intellectually dishonest. Since you did it willfully that would make you a liar and a fool.
Ilíon wrote:
It's justice
It's murder. I am against abortion except in limited circumstances, but shooting doctors or blowing up abortion clinics isn't the way to fight it and it certainly isn't Biblical.
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit The men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen." Me blog, You read
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Christian Graus wrote: What a pile of ignorant BS
Well, you can laugh, but how the hell do you claim my government won't let me defend myself ? In any case, the point is surely if our system of government broke down, I may have to, and you think I won't, so what does the government matter ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
So as long as you have your own little world to live in, nothing else matters
Well, that's not true. I am quick to throw time and money at things that are real, such as donating money to sponsor children, drought relief, etc. I am a part of society and I contribute my resources to places that I think deserve them.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
. I know how that is, back when I had money I didn't give a sh*t about the who what when where how
But I'm the one with no empathy, right ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
as long as I could buy my happiness wrapped in plastic made in china.
I try to buy local whenever I can. I pay more for things like milk and tinned foods, in order to support the local economy.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
Here is a perfect example of how government can crush you[^] You can't defend yourself against something like that. There is nothing you can do to stop it.
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Here is a perfect example of how government can crush you[^] You can't defend yourself against something like that. There is nothing you can do to stop it.
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Christian Graus wrote:
How does the government in North Korea have anything to do with me ?
Note that you are helpless to defend yourself from real threats, such as your own government if it were to break down.
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David Alinsky?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Sure - his point was that a lot of them were vaccinating against things that are not life threatening. He said he would ask 'what if we don't do this and he gets this disease' and the answer was 'he'll feel a bit sick for a few days'. If that is true, why vaccinate ? Like I said above, I've only heard his side, and I would default towards 'do what the doctor recommends', but if he's right, I would agree that it's silly to vaccinate for things that are not really that bad.
I agree - but take chicken pox, for example, which I think is pretty archetypical of a disease that most people would consider pretty benign. (I missed the vaccination for that, oh goody.) Chicken pox (varicella zoster) can lead to shingles in later life (nasty, nasty - I had a family member go half-blind when it went for his eye), and the pediatricians who taught us said that before the vaccines, they would see a varicella pneumonia or a varicella encephalitis (brain inflammation leading to all sorts of nasty problems) about once a month in the pediatric emerg. Finding that out truly surprised me.
- F
Fisticuffs wrote:
but take chicken pox, for example
No, that's an example of something you should make sure you get as a kid, if you've not been vaccinated, because it's nasty in later life.
Fisticuffs wrote:
Finding that out truly surprised me.
Our kids were vaccinated for chicken pox, I believe. For the reasons you state. Before that was available, I know parents who were relieved that their kids got it, b/c getting it as a kid, as you say, is not that bad, and you need to get it, to be immune in later life.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
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Christian Graus wrote:
we have US friends who are not getting their kids vaccinated to avoid autism.
We have friends here, trendy inner city types, who didn't get their little boy who's now three vaccinated at all, not even the vitamin K injection after birth because they believe there is little risk. It's scary to know that the kid goes to childcare everyday and no surprise we got a letter from our doctor offering free whooping cough vaccinations to parents as there's been a huge out break in our area this year.
Yeah. I think the big issue is probably 'inner city types' who have no idea how life works, and would probably find it icky if they did. I mean, so many people are so out of touch with reality in terms of things like sickness, or growing food, that they have views that are plain bizarre. The trouble is, we've had the vaccinations for so long, that people forget what it was like without them.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
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Fisticuffs wrote:
Well, the 2004 CDC data suggests that only about 5% of those abortions are later (>= 15wks) which would actually put that number around 60,000.
Okay. For the sake of the argument, I'll buy that figure. Further, I'll postulate that 70% of those abortions are performed on non viable fetuses. And that rather than the 70% figure that the study came up with for late abortions as a method of birth control, I'll flip the figures on their head and say 30% so that's only 5,400 viable fetuses with their heads crushed because mommy changed her mind. There were 53 executions for crimes like serial homicides, cop-killings, etc. in 2007 (last year for which full data is available.) Canada, I am told, considers this barbaric, but doesn't blink about 5,400 executions in the US of creatures that by any stretch of the imagination are living humans??? X|
Fisticuffs wrote:
don't take it out on me just because you can't keep this issue in perspec
You seem to have a propensity for realizing that you have gone too far and immediately blaming everyone you've been yelling at. Once again, i assure you that some day you'll find that saying, "I made a mistake," or "I was wrong," is a lot easier than to continue arguing when you know that you aren't making sense even to yourself. Enough. I'm bored. You can have the last word.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
Okay. For the sake of the argument, I'll buy that figure. Further, I'll postulate that 70% of those abortions are performed on non viable fetuses. And that rather than the 70% figure that the study came up with for late abortions as a method of birth control, I'll flip the figures on their head and say 30% so that's only 5,400 viable fetuses with their heads crushed because mommy changed her mind. There were 53 executions for crimes like serial homicides, cop-killings, etc. in 2007 (last year for which full data is available.) Canada, I am told, considers this barbaric, but doesn't blink about 5,400 executions in the US of creatures that by any stretch of the imagination are living humans???
Well, if this is what is was really about from the beginning, why not suggest that voluntary late term abortions are something that should be discouraged or outright prohibited and we could just go agree all over the place?
Oakman wrote:
You seem to have a propensity for realizing that you have gone too far and immediately blaming everyone you've been yelling at. Once again, i assure you that some day you'll find that saying, "I made a mistake," or "I was wrong," is a lot easier than to continue arguing when you know that you aren't making sense even to yourself. Enough. I'm bored. You can have the last word.
Hurray!
- F
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Christian Graus wrote:
How does the government in North Korea have anything to do with me ?
Note that you are helpless to defend yourself from real threats, such as your own government if it were to break down.
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Yeah. I think the big issue is probably 'inner city types' who have no idea how life works, and would probably find it icky if they did. I mean, so many people are so out of touch with reality in terms of things like sickness, or growing food, that they have views that are plain bizarre. The trouble is, we've had the vaccinations for so long, that people forget what it was like without them.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
Christian Graus wrote:
Yeah. I think the big issue is probably 'inner city types' who have no idea how life works, and would probably find it icky if they did. I mean, so many people are so out of touch with reality in terms of things like sickness, or growing food, that they have views that are plain bizarre. The trouble is, we've had the vaccinations for so long, that people forget what it was like without them.
The problem is that their child probably wont ever get sick as a result (not that I would wish that on them). Some people will see that as validation of their belief that vaccinations are no longer required where as it's more likely to be because 90% of the children that child comes into contact with will have been vaccinated.
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Christian Graus wrote:
What ? Are you talking about gun ownership ?
That is what I was talking about the entire time.
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Oakman wrote:
Send not to ask for whom the bell tolls and all that, but I find myself curiously unmoved by the death of a creep who made his living inducing labor and then crushing the skulls of living babies as they were delivered.
Amusingly enough -- and as we *all* realize -- had I said the same thing prior, you'd have said the opposite and you'd have tried to claim that I am immoral in my attitude. edit: So, apparently, we're both 'pro-choice' about the killing of abortionists. You know, in the "While I, personally, wouldn't kill an abortionist, I support others' right to do so" way. Or, maybe it's the "While I am personally opposed to the termination of abortionists, I simply cannot impose my personal morality upon those who make the difficult personal decision to terminate an abortionist." way. :laugh: But, surely, all persons of good-will can come together on common ground to work toward making the termination of abortionists "safe, legal, and rare." :laugh:
modified on Sunday, May 31, 2009 5:51 PM
You certainly are paranoid when it comes to Oakman, aren't you. Do you honestly think you mean anything at all to him? I suspect you are giving yourself far too much credit. Regardless of one's opinion on the morallity of the mans profession, he was still murdered, and his killer should pay the appropriate penalty for not giving him the very right that his trail will represent. No one has the right to take the law into their own hands.