Holy crap!
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Christian Graus wrote:
we have US friends who are not getting their kids vaccinated to avoid autism.
We have friends here, trendy inner city types, who didn't get their little boy who's now three vaccinated at all, not even the vitamin K injection after birth because they believe there is little risk. It's scary to know that the kid goes to childcare everyday and no surprise we got a letter from our doctor offering free whooping cough vaccinations to parents as there's been a huge out break in our area this year.
Yeah. I think the big issue is probably 'inner city types' who have no idea how life works, and would probably find it icky if they did. I mean, so many people are so out of touch with reality in terms of things like sickness, or growing food, that they have views that are plain bizarre. The trouble is, we've had the vaccinations for so long, that people forget what it was like without them.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
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Fisticuffs wrote:
Well, the 2004 CDC data suggests that only about 5% of those abortions are later (>= 15wks) which would actually put that number around 60,000.
Okay. For the sake of the argument, I'll buy that figure. Further, I'll postulate that 70% of those abortions are performed on non viable fetuses. And that rather than the 70% figure that the study came up with for late abortions as a method of birth control, I'll flip the figures on their head and say 30% so that's only 5,400 viable fetuses with their heads crushed because mommy changed her mind. There were 53 executions for crimes like serial homicides, cop-killings, etc. in 2007 (last year for which full data is available.) Canada, I am told, considers this barbaric, but doesn't blink about 5,400 executions in the US of creatures that by any stretch of the imagination are living humans??? X|
Fisticuffs wrote:
don't take it out on me just because you can't keep this issue in perspec
You seem to have a propensity for realizing that you have gone too far and immediately blaming everyone you've been yelling at. Once again, i assure you that some day you'll find that saying, "I made a mistake," or "I was wrong," is a lot easier than to continue arguing when you know that you aren't making sense even to yourself. Enough. I'm bored. You can have the last word.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
Okay. For the sake of the argument, I'll buy that figure. Further, I'll postulate that 70% of those abortions are performed on non viable fetuses. And that rather than the 70% figure that the study came up with for late abortions as a method of birth control, I'll flip the figures on their head and say 30% so that's only 5,400 viable fetuses with their heads crushed because mommy changed her mind. There were 53 executions for crimes like serial homicides, cop-killings, etc. in 2007 (last year for which full data is available.) Canada, I am told, considers this barbaric, but doesn't blink about 5,400 executions in the US of creatures that by any stretch of the imagination are living humans???
Well, if this is what is was really about from the beginning, why not suggest that voluntary late term abortions are something that should be discouraged or outright prohibited and we could just go agree all over the place?
Oakman wrote:
You seem to have a propensity for realizing that you have gone too far and immediately blaming everyone you've been yelling at. Once again, i assure you that some day you'll find that saying, "I made a mistake," or "I was wrong," is a lot easier than to continue arguing when you know that you aren't making sense even to yourself. Enough. I'm bored. You can have the last word.
Hurray!
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Christian Graus wrote:
How does the government in North Korea have anything to do with me ?
Note that you are helpless to defend yourself from real threats, such as your own government if it were to break down.
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Yeah. I think the big issue is probably 'inner city types' who have no idea how life works, and would probably find it icky if they did. I mean, so many people are so out of touch with reality in terms of things like sickness, or growing food, that they have views that are plain bizarre. The trouble is, we've had the vaccinations for so long, that people forget what it was like without them.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
Christian Graus wrote:
Yeah. I think the big issue is probably 'inner city types' who have no idea how life works, and would probably find it icky if they did. I mean, so many people are so out of touch with reality in terms of things like sickness, or growing food, that they have views that are plain bizarre. The trouble is, we've had the vaccinations for so long, that people forget what it was like without them.
The problem is that their child probably wont ever get sick as a result (not that I would wish that on them). Some people will see that as validation of their belief that vaccinations are no longer required where as it's more likely to be because 90% of the children that child comes into contact with will have been vaccinated.
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Christian Graus wrote:
What ? Are you talking about gun ownership ?
That is what I was talking about the entire time.
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Oakman wrote:
Send not to ask for whom the bell tolls and all that, but I find myself curiously unmoved by the death of a creep who made his living inducing labor and then crushing the skulls of living babies as they were delivered.
Amusingly enough -- and as we *all* realize -- had I said the same thing prior, you'd have said the opposite and you'd have tried to claim that I am immoral in my attitude. edit: So, apparently, we're both 'pro-choice' about the killing of abortionists. You know, in the "While I, personally, wouldn't kill an abortionist, I support others' right to do so" way. Or, maybe it's the "While I am personally opposed to the termination of abortionists, I simply cannot impose my personal morality upon those who make the difficult personal decision to terminate an abortionist." way. :laugh: But, surely, all persons of good-will can come together on common ground to work toward making the termination of abortionists "safe, legal, and rare." :laugh:
modified on Sunday, May 31, 2009 5:51 PM
You certainly are paranoid when it comes to Oakman, aren't you. Do you honestly think you mean anything at all to him? I suspect you are giving yourself far too much credit. Regardless of one's opinion on the morallity of the mans profession, he was still murdered, and his killer should pay the appropriate penalty for not giving him the very right that his trail will represent. No one has the right to take the law into their own hands.
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Oakman wrote:
Well in 2007 the U.S. had 1,206,200 abortions, which if the percentage holds steady - and given the reasons cited in the original study, technology woul not have an impact - 214,240 late term abortions were performed. All of them according to you, from fetal abnormalities.
According to the 2004 study he cited: "A limited number of abortions were obtained at >15 weeks' gestation, including 4.0% at 16--20 weeks and 1.4% at >21 weeks." So that is 5.4% at 16 weeks or later. Note that this is 5.4% of all abortions, not 5.4% of all pregnancies. There are over 4 million live births in the US each year, so we are talking about something like 1% of all pregnancies that are subject to late term abortion. Accoring to Fisticuffs, the "lion's share" of these (not "all of them") are for foetal abnormalities.
John Carson
John Carson wrote:
Accoring to Fisticuffs, the "lion's share" of these (not "all of them") are for foetal abnormalities.
Problem is John, that he has never provided any kind of a citation to back that up and it flies in the face of my experience. Now he's a medical man so his experience counts for something - but it's hard to ignore the evidence that can be found on google at by looking for elective late term abortions. There are clinics - including the one run by the guy who was killed - that make a good living providing late term abortions. Unless, somehow the number of foetal anomalies has shot way up in the last ten years or so, these guys are killing viable foetuses. I gave up arguing with him because he's perfectly willing to dismiss a few thousand terminations of viable fetuses each year as statistically irrelevant. And because i realised that if I ever got him to agree that it wasn't a good thing that these premies had their skulls crushed when they would have lived, he'd then go into gobbledy-gook about how premies don't don't do as well as full-termers. Which is, of course, just eugenics dressed up in it's Sunday-Go-To-Meeting clothes and masquerading as humanitarianism. Y'see, in my checkered past, I dated a nurse who quit being an ob-gyn nurse because, as she put it, she "couldn't stand spending the morning fighting to deliver and save the life of a six month old baby and then spending an hour or two in the afternoon killing a six month old fetus." She made less money in a GP's clinic, but she smiled more.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Ilíon wrote:
but it's not terrible in the wimpy, passive, hand-wringing Churchianity way that you mean the word.
Well bless your little heart. Since I didn't say how I meant it, your description can best be described as intellectually dishonest. Since you did it willfully that would make you a liar and a fool.
Ilíon wrote:
It's justice
It's murder. I am against abortion except in limited circumstances, but shooting doctors or blowing up abortion clinics isn't the way to fight it and it certainly isn't Biblical.
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit The men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen." Me blog, You read
Gary Kirkham wrote:
Well bless your little heart. Since I didn't say how I meant it, your description can best be described as intellectually dishonest. Since you did it willfully that would make you a liar and a fool.
snigger...chortle...guffaw! I'd say that you are my kind of Christian, Gary, except that Ilion would try to twist it around, so I'll say that, in my humble opinion, you're Christ's kind of Christian. Something he'll never be.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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You certainly are paranoid when it comes to Oakman, aren't you. Do you honestly think you mean anything at all to him? I suspect you are giving yourself far too much credit. Regardless of one's opinion on the morallity of the mans profession, he was still murdered, and his killer should pay the appropriate penalty for not giving him the very right that his trail will represent. No one has the right to take the law into their own hands.
Rob Graham wrote:
Regardless of one's opinion on the morality of the mans profession, he was still murdered, and his killer should pay the appropriate penalty for not giving him the very right that his trail will represent. No one has the right to take the law into their own hands.
I have sympathy for some of these guys - not the ones who bomb the clinics, but the guys who honestly believe that these doctors are committing murder and that every day they (the abortionists) are allowed to continue their grisly trade more innocents will die. I don't agree - or at least find myself not ready to agree wholeheartedly - but I ask myself, if I knew there was someone who was killing little kids and that for one reason or another (diplomatic immunity, maybe?) he couldn't or wouldn't be prosecuted - would I break the law and deliver justice?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Stan Shannon wrote:
But you would hardly consider christian fundamentalists opposed to abortion as being uncaring would you?
When they judge others based on their own situations, when they hurl abuse at women going in to abortion clinics, when they kill doctors, they are uncaring.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I mean, how do you call someone judgemental without being judgemental?
LOL - good point.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question.
Christian Graus wrote:
When they judge others based on their own situations, when they hurl abuse at women going in to abortion clinics, when they kill doctors, they are uncaring.
How so? It seems to me that they care a great deal.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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John Carson wrote:
Accoring to Fisticuffs, the "lion's share" of these (not "all of them") are for foetal abnormalities.
Problem is John, that he has never provided any kind of a citation to back that up and it flies in the face of my experience. Now he's a medical man so his experience counts for something - but it's hard to ignore the evidence that can be found on google at by looking for elective late term abortions. There are clinics - including the one run by the guy who was killed - that make a good living providing late term abortions. Unless, somehow the number of foetal anomalies has shot way up in the last ten years or so, these guys are killing viable foetuses. I gave up arguing with him because he's perfectly willing to dismiss a few thousand terminations of viable fetuses each year as statistically irrelevant. And because i realised that if I ever got him to agree that it wasn't a good thing that these premies had their skulls crushed when they would have lived, he'd then go into gobbledy-gook about how premies don't don't do as well as full-termers. Which is, of course, just eugenics dressed up in it's Sunday-Go-To-Meeting clothes and masquerading as humanitarianism. Y'see, in my checkered past, I dated a nurse who quit being an ob-gyn nurse because, as she put it, she "couldn't stand spending the morning fighting to deliver and save the life of a six month old baby and then spending an hour or two in the afternoon killing a six month old fetus." She made less money in a GP's clinic, but she smiled more.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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The doctor who made national news as a protest target because of performing late term abortions was gunned down today in church.[^]
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
That's horrible this man calling himself a doctor went around performing abortions on unwilling women, and obviously a great thing that the courageous vigilante shooter performed a late-term (post-natal, in fact) abortion of his own. And in a church too, I'm sure God will be very pleased. It's a great thing that pro-life stops being important once a person is born. </sarcasm> Anyone want to bet the shooter didn't recently lose his job/house? A famous Socialist once said, "So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.". It's shocking and saddening, but not really surprising.
You never ever could win a war / That's what you have to learn / Here everybody is a loser / You will get nothing in return - "Fortunes of War", Funker Vogt
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John Carson wrote:
Accoring to Fisticuffs, the "lion's share" of these (not "all of them") are for foetal abnormalities.
Problem is John, that he has never provided any kind of a citation to back that up and it flies in the face of my experience. Now he's a medical man so his experience counts for something - but it's hard to ignore the evidence that can be found on google at by looking for elective late term abortions. There are clinics - including the one run by the guy who was killed - that make a good living providing late term abortions. Unless, somehow the number of foetal anomalies has shot way up in the last ten years or so, these guys are killing viable foetuses. I gave up arguing with him because he's perfectly willing to dismiss a few thousand terminations of viable fetuses each year as statistically irrelevant. And because i realised that if I ever got him to agree that it wasn't a good thing that these premies had their skulls crushed when they would have lived, he'd then go into gobbledy-gook about how premies don't don't do as well as full-termers. Which is, of course, just eugenics dressed up in it's Sunday-Go-To-Meeting clothes and masquerading as humanitarianism. Y'see, in my checkered past, I dated a nurse who quit being an ob-gyn nurse because, as she put it, she "couldn't stand spending the morning fighting to deliver and save the life of a six month old baby and then spending an hour or two in the afternoon killing a six month old fetus." She made less money in a GP's clinic, but she smiled more.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
Problem is John, that he has never provided any kind of a citation to back that up
He did. This one: PMID: 14634970[^]
Oakman wrote:
I gave up arguing with him because he's perfectly willing to dismiss a few thousand terminations of viable fetuses each year as statistically irrelevant. And because i realised that if I ever got him to agree that it wasn't a good thing that these premies had their skulls crushed when they would have lived, he'd then go into gobbledy-gook about how premies don't don't do as well as full-termers.
What he actually said was:
Well, if this is what is was really about from the beginning, why not suggest that voluntary late term abortions are something that should be discouraged or outright prohibited and we could just go agree all over the place?"
John Carson
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Christian Graus wrote:
When they judge others based on their own situations, when they hurl abuse at women going in to abortion clinics, when they kill doctors, they are uncaring.
How so? It seems to me that they care a great deal.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
It seems to me that they care a great deal.
"The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity"
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
What ? Are you talking about gun ownership ?
That is what I was talking about the entire time.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Yeah. I think the big issue is probably 'inner city types' who have no idea how life works, and would probably find it icky if they did. I mean, so many people are so out of touch with reality in terms of things like sickness, or growing food, that they have views that are plain bizarre. The trouble is, we've had the vaccinations for so long, that people forget what it was like without them.
The problem is that their child probably wont ever get sick as a result (not that I would wish that on them). Some people will see that as validation of their belief that vaccinations are no longer required where as it's more likely to be because 90% of the children that child comes into contact with will have been vaccinated.
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Christian Graus wrote:
When they judge others based on their own situations, when they hurl abuse at women going in to abortion clinics, when they kill doctors, they are uncaring.
How so? It seems to me that they care a great deal.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Gary Kirkham wrote:
That's terrible.
No it isn't. It's justice ... that is, certainly it's terrible (for pure justice is a terrible thing), but it's not terrible in the wimpy, passive, hand-wringing Churchianity way that you mean the word.
Ilíon wrote:
No it isn't. It's justice ... that is, certainly it's terrible (for pure justice is a terrible thing), but it's not terrible in the wimpy, passive, hand-wringing Churchianity way that you mean the word.
What's that saying? Thou shalt murder? That's right, isn't it? I think it's becoming increasingly obvious just what sort of person you are.
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Christian Graus wrote:
You really don't know ?
Actually, I am quite perplexed by it. And I always have been. It is the original question that began turning me into a conservative.
Christian Graus wrote:
What would they have to promote in order to be on the 'right', in your view ?
I don't know. I hardly see how someone saying that life should be protected even when it is in the womb ends up on the same side of the political spectrum as Adolph Hitler. I don't necessarily agree with that fundamentalist perspective, but I'm stumped as to how anyone could catalog it politically along side Nazism.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
the same side of the political spectrum as Adolph Hitler
The socialist side?
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Gary Kirkham wrote:
That's terrible.
No it isn't. It's justice ... that is, certainly it's terrible (for pure justice is a terrible thing), but it's not terrible in the wimpy, passive, hand-wringing Churchianity way that you mean the word.