The End of an Era
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Daniel Ferguson wrote:
If the workers aren't working to earn money to buy things
Once Harvard started teaching its MBAs to worry about the next quarter, not the next ten years, it was, I suppose inevitiable. For years stock prices have risen when a company announces plans to close factories andor lay off workers.
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
Did they write the constitution on the same kind of paper
No, they didn't. I think those men pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor to keep that contract. Unfortunately, since the days of Lincoln presidents and congress critters have been able to keep their fingers crossed while swearing to uphold it.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
No, they didn't. I think those men pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor to keep that contract.
How many of our politicians would be willing to risk their lives for an ideal today? I can't think of a single one.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Oakman wrote:
It seems to me that this is the culmination of the de-industrialization of America.
Certainly. And, the only long term solution I can see is somehow, someway getting the consumers in this country to look beyond simply price. I think it can be done considering that what killed two of the big three is their reputation (whether true or not) for building substandard cars.
Oakman wrote:
Stock is a contract - but your GM stock is not only worthless due to bad management, but by the government announcing that it is canceling your stock and taking over its own.
What is just as shocking to me is that GM common stock is still being traded even though it has been announced that Uncle Sugar will retain 70% of the new common stock in the post bankruptcy company. If you look at the daily chart there is some action taking place. I don't get it. There must be a few uninformed people out there thinking that they have some kind of equity play at these prices. Even Merril Lynch has come out and stated that the old common stock is worth $0.01. Makes me really glad that I've sat on short options for this company since October. I think I am going to close these trades today.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Chris Austin wrote:
Uncle Sugar will retain 70% of the new common stock in the post bankruptcy company
what is even more interesting is yesterday's GM stock is for a completely different company than will be tommorrow's GM stock as it is an entirely new company.
Chris Austin wrote:
There must be a few uninformed people out there thinking that they have some kind of equity play at these prices.
I've heard a report that this is short covering.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Oakman wrote:
It seems to me that this is the culmination of the de-industrialization of America.
Certainly. And, the only long term solution I can see is somehow, someway getting the consumers in this country to look beyond simply price. I think it can be done considering that what killed two of the big three is their reputation (whether true or not) for building substandard cars.
Oakman wrote:
Stock is a contract - but your GM stock is not only worthless due to bad management, but by the government announcing that it is canceling your stock and taking over its own.
What is just as shocking to me is that GM common stock is still being traded even though it has been announced that Uncle Sugar will retain 70% of the new common stock in the post bankruptcy company. If you look at the daily chart there is some action taking place. I don't get it. There must be a few uninformed people out there thinking that they have some kind of equity play at these prices. Even Merril Lynch has come out and stated that the old common stock is worth $0.01. Makes me really glad that I've sat on short options for this company since October. I think I am going to close these trades today.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Chris Austin wrote:
I think I am going to close these trades today
If you don't, you may find they've suspended trading. I'm surprised they haven't.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Oakman wrote:
No, they didn't. I think those men pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor to keep that contract.
How many of our politicians would be willing to risk their lives for an ideal today? I can't think of a single one.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Chris Austin wrote:
How many of our politicians would be willing to risk their lives for an ideal today
There's a few who did, of course, but they're a (literally) dying breed. I am afraid that these days, they're all like Cheney who is willing and eager to let others do the dying while he does the posturing.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Chris Austin wrote:
Uncle Sugar will retain 70% of the new common stock in the post bankruptcy company
what is even more interesting is yesterday's GM stock is for a completely different company than will be tommorrow's GM stock as it is an entirely new company.
Chris Austin wrote:
There must be a few uninformed people out there thinking that they have some kind of equity play at these prices.
I've heard a report that this is short covering.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
what is even more interesting is yesterday's GM stock is for a completely different company than will be tommorrow's GM stock as it is an entirely new company.
Yeah. And the whole point of this tax payer intervention was to prevent people from being wiped out. I find it almost sardonic.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
I've heard a report that this is short covering.
It may be. It's just an odd pattern to see taking shape.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Chris Austin wrote:
I think I am going to close these trades today
If you don't, you may find they've suspended trading. I'm surprised they haven't.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
If you don't, you may find they've suspended trading.
I've placed the orders.
Oakman wrote:
I'm surprised they haven't.
Call me cynical but I am not. There are too many wall street plutocrats tied to congress and the sec. The brokerages are getting paid off of the action. [Edited for some crazy ass quote mess up :)]
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Chris Austin wrote:
How many of our politicians would be willing to risk their lives for an ideal today
There's a few who did, of course, but they're a (literally) dying breed. I am afraid that these days, they're all like Cheney who is willing and eager to let others do the dying while he does the posturing.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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kmg365 wrote:
He's the only one defying the regime... if only verbally, but even that incurs risk.
Verbally? So fracking what? Lots of cowards talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk - Cheney, Ilion, Obama, CSS, just to name a few. Risking your life for the sake of an ideal is what cops do, firemen, soldiers, sailors, astronauts. . . not Cheney. He got 5 frackin' student deferments because (as he put it) he had "better things to do" than fight in the service of his country.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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kmg365 wrote:
He's the only one defying the regime... if only verbally, but even that incurs risk.
Verbally? So fracking what? Lots of cowards talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk - Cheney, Ilion, Obama, CSS, just to name a few. Risking your life for the sake of an ideal is what cops do, firemen, soldiers, sailors, astronauts. . . not Cheney. He got 5 frackin' student deferments because (as he put it) he had "better things to do" than fight in the service of his country.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
CSS
Fucking bullshit! :mad: I'd fight for my rights and freedoms and enjoy doing it even if I died doing it.
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Daniel Ferguson wrote:
If the workers aren't working to earn money to buy things
Once Harvard started teaching its MBAs to worry about the next quarter, not the next ten years, it was, I suppose inevitiable. For years stock prices have risen when a company announces plans to close factories andor lay off workers.
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
Did they write the constitution on the same kind of paper
No, they didn't. I think those men pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor to keep that contract. Unfortunately, since the days of Lincoln presidents and congress critters have been able to keep their fingers crossed while swearing to uphold it.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Oakman wrote:
keep that contract
I wonder what the long term effect on society is as "the people" realize contracts and laws are just guidelines but not to be taken too seriously?
kmg365 wrote:
wonder what the long term effect on society is as "the people" realize contracts and laws are just guidelines but not to be taken too seriously?
There will, for starters, be bigger and bigger penalties for non performance, and more and more lawyers to prove that the contract was null and void the day before it was signed. Marriages will come and go even more frequently than they do now, and prenupts will be SOP and there will more and more lawyers to prove the marriage was null and void the day before it was contracted. More and more deadbeat dads not paying child support and more and more deadbeats ignoring the ever growing population of bill collectors. More and more soldiers wanting to resign just before they're sent into battle for the first time, and more and more colleges letting their classes be run by grad students while their professors drink sherry. Here on CP, more and more members will ignore the terms of service, and every reg will retreat to the Back Room because newbies don't know how to get here. Then they'll all start whining about all our religion and politics posts.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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GM filed for bankruptcy today. A lot of good men will lose their jobs in the coming weeks, either because they worked directly for GM or one of it's suppliers, or dealers. Its even possible that a small fraction of senior management may find themselves pounding the pavement. It seems to me that this is the culmination of the de-industrialization of America. For quite some time now, we've been bleeding jobs and industrial capacity and we're hurting on the former and just about out of the latter. Any student of WWII will tell you that it was the American Industrial capacity that tipped the war in favor of the allies. Our warriors were brave and smart and we could field an army big enough to stand up to the massed might of mittle Europa. But we won because we built tanks, plans, bombs, guns, cannons and ships with astounding speed. We couldn't do that today. We could reinstitute the draft if we had to, and ration supplies, but an industrial capacity that - according to what I heard this morning provided 33% of the jobs in this country during the 90's and now provides 15%, cannot be restored by a wave of Obama's magic wand. And you'd better believe that the rest of the world knows it. This government-aided and -abetted bankruptcy also stands as a poster child for the a-contract-is-just-a-piece=of-paper thinking that permeates our society. Stock is a contract - but your GM stock is not only worthless due to bad management, but by the government announcing that it is canceling your stock and taking over its own. Labor contracts are worthless in a bankruptcy and any negotiations between the labor force and management will resemble 1908, not 2008. Dealers who invested hundreds of thousands dollars because they had a contract with GM (hey get in on the ground floor with a dealership in Saturn!) are being dumped without recourse. Meanwhile over at Ford which faced the same market pressures as Chrysler and GM is royally fracked. It's two competitors are getting all kids of breaks that it won't get for no other reason than it made intelligent business decisions while GM and Chrysler were busy shooting themselves in the feet.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Secession - its the only answer.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Secession - its the only answer.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Secession - its the only answer.
Not if the question is "Do you like corn dogs?" It may indeed come to that and the U.S. make fall apart as the Roman Empire did. But it's not all a bed of roses: after secession comes Aztlan. And Indiana would have to hire its own Narcs.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Secession - its the only answer.
Not if the question is "Do you like corn dogs?" It may indeed come to that and the U.S. make fall apart as the Roman Empire did. But it's not all a bed of roses: after secession comes Aztlan. And Indiana would have to hire its own Narcs.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
It may indeed come to that and the U.S. make fall apart as the Roman Empire did. But it's not all a bed of roses: after secession comes Aztlan. And Indiana would have to hire its own Narcs.
Yeah, but I was considering a scenario where the entire country simply secedes from Washington, D.C. Let the people who actually borrowed all the money and bought all the failed companies deal with China. The rest of us will just go about our business.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Oakman wrote:
It may indeed come to that and the U.S. make fall apart as the Roman Empire did. But it's not all a bed of roses: after secession comes Aztlan. And Indiana would have to hire its own Narcs.
Yeah, but I was considering a scenario where the entire country simply secedes from Washington, D.C. Let the people who actually borrowed all the money and bought all the failed companies deal with China. The rest of us will just go about our business.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
I think that's called revolution. Although I am sure that Obama would label it a rebellion as swiftly as Lincoln did.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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kmg365 wrote:
wonder what the long term effect on society is as "the people" realize contracts and laws are just guidelines but not to be taken too seriously?
There will, for starters, be bigger and bigger penalties for non performance, and more and more lawyers to prove that the contract was null and void the day before it was signed. Marriages will come and go even more frequently than they do now, and prenupts will be SOP and there will more and more lawyers to prove the marriage was null and void the day before it was contracted. More and more deadbeat dads not paying child support and more and more deadbeats ignoring the ever growing population of bill collectors. More and more soldiers wanting to resign just before they're sent into battle for the first time, and more and more colleges letting their classes be run by grad students while their professors drink sherry. Here on CP, more and more members will ignore the terms of service, and every reg will retreat to the Back Room because newbies don't know how to get here. Then they'll all start whining about all our religion and politics posts.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
-
GM filed for bankruptcy today. A lot of good men will lose their jobs in the coming weeks, either because they worked directly for GM or one of it's suppliers, or dealers. Its even possible that a small fraction of senior management may find themselves pounding the pavement. It seems to me that this is the culmination of the de-industrialization of America. For quite some time now, we've been bleeding jobs and industrial capacity and we're hurting on the former and just about out of the latter. Any student of WWII will tell you that it was the American Industrial capacity that tipped the war in favor of the allies. Our warriors were brave and smart and we could field an army big enough to stand up to the massed might of mittle Europa. But we won because we built tanks, plans, bombs, guns, cannons and ships with astounding speed. We couldn't do that today. We could reinstitute the draft if we had to, and ration supplies, but an industrial capacity that - according to what I heard this morning provided 33% of the jobs in this country during the 90's and now provides 15%, cannot be restored by a wave of Obama's magic wand. And you'd better believe that the rest of the world knows it. This government-aided and -abetted bankruptcy also stands as a poster child for the a-contract-is-just-a-piece=of-paper thinking that permeates our society. Stock is a contract - but your GM stock is not only worthless due to bad management, but by the government announcing that it is canceling your stock and taking over its own. Labor contracts are worthless in a bankruptcy and any negotiations between the labor force and management will resemble 1908, not 2008. Dealers who invested hundreds of thousands dollars because they had a contract with GM (hey get in on the ground floor with a dealership in Saturn!) are being dumped without recourse. Meanwhile over at Ford which faced the same market pressures as Chrysler and GM is royally fracked. It's two competitors are getting all kids of breaks that it won't get for no other reason than it made intelligent business decisions while GM and Chrysler were busy shooting themselves in the feet.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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While, fomr an isolationist point of view, it is easy to agree with you, is this not just an instance of the world becoming one big system?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
is this not just an instance of the world becoming one big system?
As long as that system is dependent on slavery and mass pollution to provide the modern equivalent of bread and circuses to the rest, I, personally, would hope that the u.S. would opt out.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin