Domestic Terrorism
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Absolutely. We as a nation of laws, can't stand by and allow activists to bomb, kill, and make BS Supreme Court rulings for their own political agenda.
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Absolutely. Otherwise, we are no better than the 'moderate muslims' who only have the courage to lecture westerners on how to behave properly but run like sheep from their own extremists.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Sorry for the late reply Mike.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
"what is legal" and that is subjective
No, legal is what is define by the law. What you feel is right or wrong is subjective. Unless you mean the interpretation of defined laws to be legal or not. Personally, I'm against abortion, but killing someone who is allowing/facilitating/pro abortion is something I'm against as well.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Personally, I'm against abortion, but killing someone who is allowing/facilitating/pro abortion is something I'm against as well.
we agree.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Yeah, you waving your hand in dismissal doesn't make the debate go away. Just because you don't recognize the legitimacy of an opposing argument doesn't make it invalid. Otherwise I'd just say that a bunch of terrorist apologists crying about mistreatment isn't a debate.
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BoneSoft wrote:
And there's no way to know just how many lives will be saved by his actions.
I am reminded of a quote from the 1979 novel (Stephen King) and the 1983 movie The Dead Zone[^] ...Johny Smith asks if the doc, a holocaust survivor, if he could go back in time and given the opportunity, to kill Hitler... Johnny Smith: What about my question? Dr. Sam Weizak: Huh? Huh? Oh, you mean the one about Hitler? Johnny Smith: What would you do? Dr. Sam Weizak: I don't like this, John. What are you getting at? Johnny Smith: What would you do? Would you kill him? Dr. Sam Weizak: All right. All right. I'll give you an answer. I'm a man of medicine. I'm expected to save lives and ease suffering. I love people. Therefore, I would have no choice but to kill the son of a bitch. Johnny Smith: You'd never get away alive. Dr. Sam Weizak: It doesn't matter. I would kill him. [lifting drink] Dr. Sam Weizak: Nasdro via. Skol.
modified on Tuesday, June 2, 2009 4:57 PM
Yeah, I've been reminded many times in the last few days of the go back in time and kill Hitler conundrum. And in both cases, I can say that I don't condone the behavior and would never consider it myself, but I can see the argument.
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Yeah, you waving your hand in dismissal doesn't make the debate go away. Just because you don't recognize the legitimacy of an opposing argument doesn't make it invalid. Otherwise I'd just say that a bunch of terrorist apologists crying about mistreatment isn't a debate.
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BoneSoft wrote:
Just because you don't recognize the legitimacy of an opposing argument doesn't make it invalid.
It is not my recognition of the illigitimacy of the pro-torture position that makes it invalid, it is the law that makes it invalid.
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oilFactotum wrote:
It's not either/or. Everyone's rights need to be protected. Is that a problem for you?
Absolutely its a problem. If there is some kind of anti-abortion terrorist movement growing in this country I want some body to be water boarded and wire tapped until we get rid of it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Good for you. I don't.
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You know what was in his head?!? You'd better contact the authorities, I hear they're trying to ascertain his motives. There were 3 doctors in the US who did late term abortions. Was his "political goal" to terrify the other 2? Maybe he just felt compelled to stop somebody who's already killed around 60,000 babies and would have almost certainly killed more. You forget, abortion is just politics for your side of the argument. It's always been more than that for the other side.
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BoneSoft wrote:
You forget, abortion is just politics for your side of the argument. It's always been more than that for the other side.
Bull hockey. Don't pretend you "know" why people support one position or another. The motives, on both sides, are as numerous.
BoneSoft wrote:
Was his "political goal" to terrify the other 2?
Of course it was. And anyone else who might choose to provide late term abortions.
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Of course it has to be, you and that one chick say so. :rolleyes:
oilFactotum wrote:
This was, in other words, a political act. Tiller was murdered so that those in his line of work would be intimidated.
Yeah, the other 2 doctors in the country who perform late term abortions. :rolleyes:
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And anyone else who might choose to provide the service. :rolleyes: Don't play ignorant. He did not act in a vacuum. The last decade has seen numerous death threat, assaults, antrax threats, etc - see my OP. As well as countless acts of coordinated harassment.
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Good for you. I don't.
oilFactotum wrote:
Good for you. I don't.
Well fine. I guess you don't care how many people are killed by terrorists than.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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oilFactotum wrote:
Good for you. I don't.
Well fine. I guess you don't care how many people are killed by terrorists than.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I guess you don't care how many people are killed by terrorists
Of course I care. Putting aside the fact that torture is illegal and immoral, the very practical result of not torturing is the saving of American lives. We now know that our torture regime has resulted in the death of Americans. No lives have been saved and many have been lost.
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BoneSoft wrote:
Just because you don't recognize the legitimacy of an opposing argument doesn't make it invalid.
It is not my recognition of the illigitimacy of the pro-torture position that makes it invalid, it is the law that makes it invalid.
You're dodging the issue again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. Torture is illegal. Illegal actions cannot be sanctioned. All agreed. Deciding what is and isn't torture is not so black and white. Hence the debate, hence the argument, hence the disagreement. Can you at least admit that we don't agree?
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BoneSoft wrote:
You forget, abortion is just politics for your side of the argument. It's always been more than that for the other side.
Bull hockey. Don't pretend you "know" why people support one position or another. The motives, on both sides, are as numerous.
BoneSoft wrote:
Was his "political goal" to terrify the other 2?
Of course it was. And anyone else who might choose to provide late term abortions.
oilFactotum wrote:
Bull hockey. Don't pretend you "know" why people support one position or another. The motives, on both sides, are as numerous.
Enlighten me then. What noble goals do the supporters of state sanctioned murder hold so dear? What principals are so important that they trump a baby's right to live? And why don't they trump your right to live just because somebody's already cut your cord? Because you have the ability to fight back?
oilFactotum wrote:
Of course it was. And anyone else who might choose to provide late term abortions.
OK fine. But if affecting 2 out of 300,000,000 people constitutes "terrorism" then I defy you to find a person on earth who isn't a terrorist. Or a better answer might be: Bull hockey. Don't pretend you "know" why people do one thing or another. The motives of criminals are numerous.
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And anyone else who might choose to provide the service. :rolleyes: Don't play ignorant. He did not act in a vacuum. The last decade has seen numerous death threat, assaults, antrax threats, etc - see my OP. As well as countless acts of coordinated harassment.
oilFactotum wrote:
And anyone else who might choose to provide the service
Yeah, and since there are two currently, it's obvious that they're just flocking to it like moths to a flame. :rolleyes:
oilFactotum wrote:
Don't play ignorant. He did not act in a vacuum. The last decade has seen numerous death threat, assaults, antrax threats, etc - see my OP. As well as countless acts of coordinated harassment.
Yeah so what. Where's the proof that he was part of this coordinated effort? Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. You and I do not know. If some Muslim kid killed a Jewish kid for some reason would you automatically assume it was for religious reasons? Ya know, cuz the last 2 millennia has seen numerous death threats, assaults, murders, wars, oppressions, shootings, rocket attacks and rock throwings. As well as countless acts of coordinated harassment.
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You're dodging the issue again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. Torture is illegal. Illegal actions cannot be sanctioned. All agreed. Deciding what is and isn't torture is not so black and white. Hence the debate, hence the argument, hence the disagreement. Can you at least admit that we don't agree?
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I'm not dodging the issue. I have been quite clear all along. There are no grey areas when it comes to Bush's "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques". They are all torture. We convicted Nazis of using the exact same techniques "Verschärfte Vernehmung"[^]. The precedent and the law are very clear. And bear in mind that Geneva and the Torture Convention don't just outlaw torture but other coercive techniques as well.
BoneSoft wrote:
Can you at least admit that we don't agree?
Of course we disagree. Did you think I was disputing that??
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oilFactotum wrote:
Bull hockey. Don't pretend you "know" why people support one position or another. The motives, on both sides, are as numerous.
Enlighten me then. What noble goals do the supporters of state sanctioned murder hold so dear? What principals are so important that they trump a baby's right to live? And why don't they trump your right to live just because somebody's already cut your cord? Because you have the ability to fight back?
oilFactotum wrote:
Of course it was. And anyone else who might choose to provide late term abortions.
OK fine. But if affecting 2 out of 300,000,000 people constitutes "terrorism" then I defy you to find a person on earth who isn't a terrorist. Or a better answer might be: Bull hockey. Don't pretend you "know" why people do one thing or another. The motives of criminals are numerous.
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BoneSoft wrote:
OK fine. But if affecting 2 out of 300,000,000 people constitutes "terrorism"
You're pretending ignorance, again(I hope). Why do you think there are only 2? Because of the harassment, the death threats, the assaults and the murders. That's exactly how terrorism works. Murder a doctor in his church(!) sends quite a powerful message. And of course all of this doesn't just work on the doctors, it works on the women who want and need health care (not just abortions). If the clinic is picketed and the patients are harassed that makes it all the more likely that women won't get the care they need.
BoneSoft wrote:
Or a better answer might be: Bull hockey. Don't pretend you "know" why people do one thing or another. The motives of criminals are numerous.
Wow - you really insist on going there - you so want to justify murdering doctors. X| So now you are insisting that all those suicide bomber are not terrorists. We can't possibly know their motives, thus they are not terrorists. According to you, there is no way we can possibly call the men who flew planes into buildings terrorists, because we can't possibly know there motives. You are now on record insisting that the detainees at GITMO are not, after all this, terrorists. Quite a 180.
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oilFactotum wrote:
And anyone else who might choose to provide the service
Yeah, and since there are two currently, it's obvious that they're just flocking to it like moths to a flame. :rolleyes:
oilFactotum wrote:
Don't play ignorant. He did not act in a vacuum. The last decade has seen numerous death threat, assaults, antrax threats, etc - see my OP. As well as countless acts of coordinated harassment.
Yeah so what. Where's the proof that he was part of this coordinated effort? Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. You and I do not know. If some Muslim kid killed a Jewish kid for some reason would you automatically assume it was for religious reasons? Ya know, cuz the last 2 millennia has seen numerous death threats, assaults, murders, wars, oppressions, shootings, rocket attacks and rock throwings. As well as countless acts of coordinated harassment.
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BoneSoft wrote:
it's obvious that they're just flocking to it like moths to a flame
No shit, Sherlock. Murder, death threats, assault, harassment and more can actually be very successful. Terrorism can work.
BoneSoft wrote:
Where's the proof that he was part of this coordinated effort?
That's a new one. Why must it be a coordinated effort? If a suicide bomber acts without orders from Bin Laden he's not a terrorist?
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BoneSoft wrote:
OK fine. But if affecting 2 out of 300,000,000 people constitutes "terrorism"
You're pretending ignorance, again(I hope). Why do you think there are only 2? Because of the harassment, the death threats, the assaults and the murders. That's exactly how terrorism works. Murder a doctor in his church(!) sends quite a powerful message. And of course all of this doesn't just work on the doctors, it works on the women who want and need health care (not just abortions). If the clinic is picketed and the patients are harassed that makes it all the more likely that women won't get the care they need.
BoneSoft wrote:
Or a better answer might be: Bull hockey. Don't pretend you "know" why people do one thing or another. The motives of criminals are numerous.
Wow - you really insist on going there - you so want to justify murdering doctors. X| So now you are insisting that all those suicide bomber are not terrorists. We can't possibly know their motives, thus they are not terrorists. According to you, there is no way we can possibly call the men who flew planes into buildings terrorists, because we can't possibly know there motives. You are now on record insisting that the detainees at GITMO are not, after all this, terrorists. Quite a 180.
oilFactotum wrote:
You're pretending ignorance, again(I hope).
And you're living in fantasy land. Do you really believe that this anti-abortion conspiracy is SOOO successful that it alone keeps the number of people performing late term abortions to a maximum of 3?!??! But at the same time is so ineffectual in curtailing the millions of abortions that happen every year? Could it be more plausible that late term abortions are illegal in most places, and most places where it is legal it is only legal in specific instances? Tiller danced around those restrictions for decades.
oilFactotum wrote:
more likely that women won't get the care they need
Are you referring to the 0.7% of abortions that are arguably necessary? I'm betting they make it through the picket lines.
oilFactotum wrote:
you so want to justify murdering doctors
Where in the hell do you get that from? :wtf: I don't condone murdering anybody. All that statement was meant to say was that you have no idea what motivated this one guy to kill Tiller. For all YOU know Tiller owed him money, or his dog crapped on his lawn and he just couldn't take it any more.
oilFactotum wrote:
suicide bomber are not terrorists. We can't possibly know their motives
This is an all time low for your brand of dishonesty. People shoot people every day for myriad reasons. The other day one such victim just happened to be a notorious abortion "doctor". Maybe Probably he did it for political reasons, maybe he didn't, but either way YOU have no idea why he did it. On the other hand, show me one single suicide bombing in the history of mankind that wasn't a terrorist attack.
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BoneSoft wrote:
it's obvious that they're just flocking to it like moths to a flame
No shit, Sherlock. Murder, death threats, assault, harassment and more can actually be very successful. Terrorism can work.
BoneSoft wrote:
Where's the proof that he was part of this coordinated effort?
That's a new one. Why must it be a coordinated effort? If a suicide bomber acts without orders from Bin Laden he's not a terrorist?
oilFactotum wrote:
Murder, death threats, assault, harassment
Laws prohibiting, morals, the Hippocratic Oath, a lack of mental instability, a distaste for murder, etc...
oilFactotum wrote:
Why must it be a coordinated effort?
It doesn't have to be. You suggested it was.
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oilFactotum wrote:
You're pretending ignorance, again(I hope).
And you're living in fantasy land. Do you really believe that this anti-abortion conspiracy is SOOO successful that it alone keeps the number of people performing late term abortions to a maximum of 3?!??! But at the same time is so ineffectual in curtailing the millions of abortions that happen every year? Could it be more plausible that late term abortions are illegal in most places, and most places where it is legal it is only legal in specific instances? Tiller danced around those restrictions for decades.
oilFactotum wrote:
more likely that women won't get the care they need
Are you referring to the 0.7% of abortions that are arguably necessary? I'm betting they make it through the picket lines.
oilFactotum wrote:
you so want to justify murdering doctors
Where in the hell do you get that from? :wtf: I don't condone murdering anybody. All that statement was meant to say was that you have no idea what motivated this one guy to kill Tiller. For all YOU know Tiller owed him money, or his dog crapped on his lawn and he just couldn't take it any more.
oilFactotum wrote:
suicide bomber are not terrorists. We can't possibly know their motives
This is an all time low for your brand of dishonesty. People shoot people every day for myriad reasons. The other day one such victim just happened to be a notorious abortion "doctor". Maybe Probably he did it for political reasons, maybe he didn't, but either way YOU have no idea why he did it. On the other hand, show me one single suicide bombing in the history of mankind that wasn't a terrorist attack.
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BoneSoft wrote:
Do you really believe that this anti-abortion conspiracy is SOOO successful that it alone keeps the number of people performing late term abortions to a maximum of 3?!??! But at the same time is so ineffectual in curtailing the millions of abortions that happen every year?
As usual your statement is always full of hyperbolic excess. But putting that aside, Yes. Terrorism can work.
BoneSoft wrote:
Are you referring t
Of course not, you still just pretending to be ignorant.
BoneSoft wrote:
other day one such victim just happened to be a notorious abortion doctor.
No, he was killed because of who he was. This was not an isolated incident.
BoneSoft wrote:
show me one single suicide bombing in the history of mankind that wasn't a terrorist attack.
Prove to me that they were. You're claiming that the context that the attack comes in is irrelevant. You've made it clear that we must know his private motives before we can determine if his is a terrorist. You don't know why suicide bombers act. It could be for personal revenge, it could be for money for the family.
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BoneSoft wrote:
Do you really believe that this anti-abortion conspiracy is SOOO successful that it alone keeps the number of people performing late term abortions to a maximum of 3?!??! But at the same time is so ineffectual in curtailing the millions of abortions that happen every year?
As usual your statement is always full of hyperbolic excess. But putting that aside, Yes. Terrorism can work.
BoneSoft wrote:
Are you referring t
Of course not, you still just pretending to be ignorant.
BoneSoft wrote:
other day one such victim just happened to be a notorious abortion doctor.
No, he was killed because of who he was. This was not an isolated incident.
BoneSoft wrote:
show me one single suicide bombing in the history of mankind that wasn't a terrorist attack.
Prove to me that they were. You're claiming that the context that the attack comes in is irrelevant. You've made it clear that we must know his private motives before we can determine if his is a terrorist. You don't know why suicide bombers act. It could be for personal revenge, it could be for money for the family.
oilFactotum wrote:
Of course not, you still just pretending to be ignorant.
So then you admit to painting elective abortion in the soft fuzzy light of "medical care". I guess you're also a fan of hyperbole when it suits your purpose.
oilFactotum wrote:
No, he was killed because of who he was.
Again, notify the authorities. He most likely was, but you don't know why.
oilFactotum wrote:
This was not an isolated incident.
So it was a conspiracy? Or are you saying that the man who killed Tiller was involved in other attacks on clinics and/or "doctors".
oilFactotum wrote:
You're claiming that the context that the attack comes in is irrelevant.
No, I'm acknowledging the fact that you don't know what the context was.
oilFactotum wrote:
You've made it clear that we must know his private motives before we can determine if his is a terrorist. You don't know why suicide bombers act. It could be for personal revenge, it could be for money for the family.
Who's feigning ignorance now? People shoot other people all the time for many many reasons. And most of the time their aim is to stop somebody from breathing, not as a warning to other people. Suicide bombers strap explosives to themselves and blow up many many other people at once for one and only one reason. But I'll acknowledge the possibility that there may have been an odd bomber somewhere in history that did it for some other reason.
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